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Forums - Microsoft - 360 DVD data limit is 6.8 GB

Ascended_Saiyan3 on 28 April 2009
Fumanchu said:
MikeB said:
A summary from my perspective based on discussions.

Early XBox 360 drives were slower 12x drives, later 360 drives are faster and 16x drives are in use on the 360 today.

The inner most part of a 360 needs to be dual layer, is read first and includes video files and other stuff. The drive rotation speed remains constant across reading discs, thus data at the outer part of the disc is read faster than the inner parts. 360 games are thus optimised to place read speed critical data at the outer part of the disc (but thus involves higher seektimes and more layer switching, as normally a disc is read from the inner parts towards outer parts).

There are many early XBox 360 games which only use a single layer for game data storage, this as layer switches (these delays are different from normal seek times involved with lens movement) aren't involved, thus single layer game data can be read faster.

Games on dual layer discs read data slower due to these layer switches. Generating an image file most likely just involves one layer switch, layer 1 is read and copied then layer 2. This is different from game data reading which involves lots of layer switching.

Apart from just saying it what concrete information do you have that they're 12x SL drives?

I've seen this disputed - do you have any sources that claim this? I mean apart from 3.4GB install sizes, which doesn't mean the disc uses DVD-5.

I'd love for you to prove everyone wrong but we need something more substantial than 'because I said so'...what I'm asking in case it wasn't clear before is can you provide any proof to your claims?

 

The information is weird.  It doesn't line up.  This is what we have so far.

- Some say 12x DL-DVD read speed.  Some say 8x DL-DVD read speed.

- The HDD ripping process is STILL different from the two options above (6.6GB in 09:47secs suggests around 16x DL-DVD read speed which is an average of around 12MB/s)

Something wonky is at play here and I don't have a clue what it is unless the drive was replaced with a faster one.

 



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Ausfalcon on 28 April 2009

@MikeB

Well best of luck with the physical therapy centers.

But I still do not see how one can speak of having a game console / computer firm that had aspirations to buy out another firm (presumably with money or other valuables) and had aspirations to make business deals with Sony corporation as somehow being run as a not-for-profit as you imply.



Currently playing:  PC:  Wolfenstein  PS2:  Final Fantasy X  PS3: All-Pro Football 2K8 Wii:  Force Unleashed  PSP:  God of War: CoO Xbox 360:  Gears of War 2  

Most anticipated game:  Dragon Age Origins (PC)

MikeB on 28 April 2009

@ Ausfalcon

Well best of luck with the physical therapy centers.


Thanks.

We have a much more multidisciplinary team (we also work together with the next door hospital). There's also a wellness approach to this (baths and saunas), but the focus is on treating people with back pains.

aspirations to buy out another firm


Well I knew the manager/owner, I thought it would be a shame that the service they were providing would end.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

Linkzmax on 28 April 2009

I'm going to re-link this because it seems many missed it. http://www.xbox.com/en-AU/support/xbox360/manuals/xbox360specs.htm "# 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM "

It seems MikeB is now admitting it, though some are still claiming otherwise. There's really no point in arguing any further. People are either set in their view, or they'll look at the facts, of which there are plenty.



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Guiding Light on 28 April 2009
Ascended_Saiyan3 said:
Fumanchu said:
MikeB said:
A summary from my perspective based on discussions.

Early XBox 360 drives were slower 12x drives, later 360 drives are faster and 16x drives are in use on the 360 today.

The inner most part of a 360 needs to be dual layer, is read first and includes video files and other stuff. The drive rotation speed remains constant across reading discs, thus data at the outer part of the disc is read faster than the inner parts. 360 games are thus optimised to place read speed critical data at the outer part of the disc (but thus involves higher seektimes and more layer switching, as normally a disc is read from the inner parts towards outer parts).

There are many early XBox 360 games which only use a single layer for game data storage, this as layer switches (these delays are different from normal seek times involved with lens movement) aren't involved, thus single layer game data can be read faster.

Games on dual layer discs read data slower due to these layer switches. Generating an image file most likely just involves one layer switch, layer 1 is read and copied then layer 2. This is different from game data reading which involves lots of layer switching.

Apart from just saying it what concrete information do you have that they're 12x SL drives?

I've seen this disputed - do you have any sources that claim this? I mean apart from 3.4GB install sizes, which doesn't mean the disc uses DVD-5.

I'd love for you to prove everyone wrong but we need something more substantial than 'because I said so'...what I'm asking in case it wasn't clear before is can you provide any proof to your claims?

 

The information is weird.  It doesn't line up.  This is what we have so far.

- Some say 12x DL-DVD read speed.  Some say 8x DL-DVD read speed.

- The HDD ripping process is STILL different from the two options above (6.6GB in 09:47secs suggests around 16x DL-DVD read speed which is an average of around 12MB/s)

Something wonky is at play here and I don't have a clue what it is unless the drive was replaced with a faster one.

 

 

 There's nothing wonky at play.

The dummy\padding data is before the game data obbiosly to improve read speed as it pushes the game data towards the edge improving read speed. Another reason why the Xbox 360 is better, see it even made you think it was faster than 12x due to it's optimizations.

9:47 does not suggest a 16x read rate. 16x would be around the 9min mark for that amount of data.

It does show a 12x read rate for DL media however.

There are some things people shouldn't dispute if they don't undedrstand what they are talking about and just listen to the person that does seem to make sense. Are people so....dumb? That they can take onboard someone's point as gospel truth purely because they write well?

Do you believe everything you read in a tabeloid newspaper, the sensationalistc style....It's got MikeB all over it.

 

 

Now I've said it before, I'll say it again, I've given you proof it's 12x. If you still are too pigheaded to just accept it. Then go and have a look and post a question on this forum...

 

http://www.xbox-scene.com

 

or

 

http://www.xboxhacker.net

 

 

(In the technical dvd modding forum)



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Guiding Light on 28 April 2009
Linkzmax said:
I'm going to re-link this because it seems many missed it. http://www.xbox.com/en-AU/support/xbox360/manuals/xbox360specs.htm "# 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM "

It seems MikeB is now admitting it, though some are still claiming otherwise. There's really no point in arguing any further. People are either set in their view, or they'll look at the facts, of which there are plenty.


Ascended_Saiyan3 on 29 April 2009
Guiding Light said:
Linkzmax said:
I'm going to re-link this because it seems many missed it. http://www.xbox.com/en-AU/support/xbox360/manuals/xbox360specs.htm "# 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM "

It seems MikeB is now admitting it, though some are still claiming otherwise. There's really no point in arguing any further. People are either set in their view, or they'll look at the facts, of which there are plenty.

Actually, MikeB is right and wrong (this includes me as well).  The X360 drive IS 8x on DL-DVDs.  This is proven by the transfer rate to HDD from the Gamespot link.

The chart in the link below shows what the average transfer rate is for each multiple.

http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa4.htm

This, CLEARLY, lines up with 8x DVD speeds.

The wrong part of our thinking was that the AVERAGE transfer speed was lower than it is.  BD drive is still faster at certain sections of the disc, but the 8x DVD read speed gains this back over the remaining area of the disc.

 

In the end, X360 can only rely on the DVD drive, because all units don't have HDDs (hence the load times in games).  Meanwhile, the PS3 can stream from the BD drive AND the HDD to eliminate load times, in games, altogether.  Also, MUCH data transfer time is lost beyond 6.8GB of data in the name of ejecting and replacing a disc.

 



Guiding Light on 29 April 2009
Ascended_Saiyan3 said:
Guiding Light said:
Linkzmax said:
I'm going to re-link this because it seems many missed it. http://www.xbox.com/en-AU/support/xbox360/manuals/xbox360specs.htm "# 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM "

It seems MikeB is now admitting it, though some are still claiming otherwise. There's really no point in arguing any further. People are either set in their view, or they'll look at the facts, of which there are plenty.

Actually, MikeB is right and wrong (this includes me as well).  The X360 drive IS 8x on DL-DVDs.  This is proven by the transfer rate to HDD from the Gamespot link.

The chart in the link below shows what the average transfer rate is for each multiple.

http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa4.htm

This, CLEARLY, lines up with 8x DVD speeds.

The wrong part of our thinking was that the AVERAGE transfer speed was lower than it is.  BD drive is still faster at certain sections of the disc, but the 8x DVD read speed gains this back over the remaining area of the disc.

 

In the end, X360 can only rely on the DVD drive, because all units don't have HDDs (hence the load times in games).  Meanwhile, the PS3 can stream from the BD drive AND the HDD to eliminate load times, in games, altogether.  Also, MUCH data transfer time is lost beyond 6.8GB of data in the name of ejecting and replacing a disc.

 

 

 

No he is wrong. Please don't bring other nonsense into this. I'm not discussing how long it takes to put a disc in the drive. The read speed is 12x for Dual Layer, I have explained this over and over with multiple sources.

If you are intent on wrongly believing it is 8x then so be it...Simply timing the install time on the Xbox 360 proves that it is 12x. Find a game that is 6.8GB in size once installed on the HD, time it, there you go. OPEN AND SHUT CASE!

I can't be bothered anymore, believe what you like. You basically trying to tell me the sun is green  this is such a stupid thread It's like banging my head against a brick wall.

 

I'll say it AGAIN, what 5th time now?

 

Hacked firmware is available in different speeds, 5x\8x\12x. Illegal ISOs are all dual layer (properly made iXtreme ones) iXtreme firmware is (or was, it isn't anymore because of ms detecting lower read speeds) in 5x\8x\12x.

I don't claim to know "everything" but I know my shit when it comes to hacked firmware. I have flashed my drive with 5x\8x\12x firmware.

Now if you don't want to listen to someone who has first hand actually tried out this stuff, then don't.

Carry on in la la land and believe what you want to belive.

My only goal was to put things straight.

edit, no disrespect :) but you need to open your eyes and take in things you don't want to hear.

edit - The gamespot article is clearly not scientific, they are retards over there and haven't taken into account the video partition location, dummy\padding data etc. If you are making judgements on ONE article from ONE website instead of lots of people, availablity of actual 12x firmware which is classed as the stock speed. You need your head testing.



Fumanchu on 29 April 2009
Ascended_Saiyan3 said:
Guiding Light said:
Linkzmax said:
I'm going to re-link this because it seems many missed it. http://www.xbox.com/en-AU/support/xbox360/manuals/xbox360specs.htm "# 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM "

It seems MikeB is now admitting it, though some are still claiming otherwise. There's really no point in arguing any further. People are either set in their view, or they'll look at the facts, of which there are plenty.

Actually, MikeB is right and wrong (this includes me as well).  The X360 drive IS 8x on DL-DVDs.  This is proven by the transfer rate to HDD from the Gamespot link.

The chart in the link below shows what the average transfer rate is for each multiple.

http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa4.htm

This, CLEARLY, lines up with 8x DVD speeds.

The wrong part of our thinking was that the AVERAGE transfer speed was lower than it is.  BD drive is still faster at certain sections of the disc, but the 8x DVD read speed gains this back over the remaining area of the disc.

 

In the end, X360 can only rely on the DVD drive, because all units don't have HDDs (hence the load times in games).  Meanwhile, the PS3 can stream from the BD drive AND the HDD to eliminate load times, in games, altogether.  Also, MUCH data transfer time is lost beyond 6.8GB of data in the name of ejecting and replacing a disc.

 

Your chart is wrong.  It stipulates average but it is showing the maximum data transfer speeds for each read speed.

If 8x = 10.57MB/s maximum the (technical/no optimising) average reverts down to about 6x = 7.93MB/s

This is what MikeB has been quoting from Beyond3d. 

The HDD install times taken from Gamespot put the AVERAGE at ~11.5MB/s indicating that the maximum should be closer to the 12x speed whilst never actually achieving this speed because MS leaves 500MB off the last (tracks?) of both layers - the fastest speed.

MikeB is saying this is unique to the newly added faster drives - but I haven't seen install times from any slower drives out there...

With all the information that has been brought to light here it's hard to be skeptical that indeed they are 12x DL-DVD drives.

 



Ascended_Saiyan3 on 29 April 2009
Fumanchu said:
Ascended_Saiyan3 said:
Guiding Light said:
Linkzmax said:
I'm going to re-link this because it seems many missed it. http://www.xbox.com/en-AU/support/xbox360/manuals/xbox360specs.htm "# 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM "

It seems MikeB is now admitting it, though some are still claiming otherwise. There's really no point in arguing any further. People are either set in their view, or they'll look at the facts, of which there are plenty.

Actually, MikeB is right and wrong (this includes me as well).  The X360 drive IS 8x on DL-DVDs.  This is proven by the transfer rate to HDD from the Gamespot link.

The chart in the link below shows what the average transfer rate is for each multiple.

http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa4.htm

This, CLEARLY, lines up with 8x DVD speeds.

The wrong part of our thinking was that the AVERAGE transfer speed was lower than it is.  BD drive is still faster at certain sections of the disc, but the 8x DVD read speed gains this back over the remaining area of the disc.

 

In the end, X360 can only rely on the DVD drive, because all units don't have HDDs (hence the load times in games).  Meanwhile, the PS3 can stream from the BD drive AND the HDD to eliminate load times, in games, altogether.  Also, MUCH data transfer time is lost beyond 6.8GB of data in the name of ejecting and replacing a disc.

 

Your chart is wrong.  It stipulates average but it is showing the maximum data transfer speeds for each read speed.

If 8x = 10.57MB/s maximum the (technical/no optimising) average reverts down to about 6x = 7.93MB/s

This is what MikeB has been quoting from Beyond3d. 

The HDD install times taken from Gamespot put the AVERAGE at ~11.5MB/s indicating that the maximum should be closer to the 12x speed whilst never actually achieving this speed because MS leaves 500MB off the last (tracks?) of both layers - the fastest speed.

MikeB is saying this is unique to the newly added faster drives - but I haven't seen install times from any slower drives out there...

With all the information that has been brought to light here it's hard to be skeptical that indeed they are 12x DL-DVD drives.

 

Upon further review, the chart is correct.  The description of the chart is not.  This is something I should have caught.  I've been up too many hours and currently between too many things.  It's back to my previous post of the X360 drive being 16x DVD drive, which means 12x DL-DVD max transfer speed.