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Forums - General - Healthcare isn't a business, it's peoples lives

Kasz216 on 24 April 2009
vlad321 said:
Kasz216 said:
vlad321 said:

 

Agreed, so tax them for their own good basically and make a proper healthcare system. I agree with the Wealth thing as well. The system is broken, but I doubt forcing people to have isurance (kinda like cars, but a lot worse) will do much.

See.  I'm fundamentally against taxing people for their own good.  I think people have a right to be as stupid as they want to be.  I'm more interested in universal healthcare simply because... healthcare hurts US buisnesses.

Also... the way the government works.  I don't believe government run healthcare would run smoother then the US' current system.

We need to come up with a system of healthcare that would take the politics out of it... some sort of bidding system or credit towards purchasing insurance... or something.

If government was given the ability to set prices.  They'd probably just use it to give their friends reason to give them some of that money back.

 

As long as the money comes from the government, I really don't care how its dealt with. As long as it's efficient too, of course. Can't spend the most and be so low on the list you know? I can udnersand spending a bit for logistics and all, but not 1st and 37th.

I just think that's how it'd work out though... I mean for example...

The states that cover more of their population with medicade are the least efficent and least effective... when you would expect the opposite to be true.

 

 



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akuma587 on 24 April 2009

You will see things change if the government has a larger stake in the healthcare industry (which is what many people are afraid of). They will have much more bargaining power in terms of what they will end up paying.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Kasz216 on 24 April 2009
akuma587 said:
You will see things change if the government has a larger stake in the healthcare industry (which is what many people are afraid of). They will have much more bargaining power in terms of what they will end up paying.

Why then does the government seem to perform the worst in the markets where it does have more stake?

One thing i'm curious about... is if nursing homes are common in the UK and other socialist countries.

 



akuma587 on 24 April 2009

Which markets are you referring to? Comparing private schools to public schools is an inherently futile process since private schools have to deal with so much less, although there is plenty of room for public schools to improve. And state governments share the largest share of the blame.

National defense is the only area I can think of where the government has been truly wasteful in recent years. That and farm subsidies.

I am certainly for entitlement reform though. It is going to take a lot of work to get those in line. Cutting benefits, raising the eligible age, raising payroll taxes, etc.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

mrstickball on 24 April 2009

Akuma -

Explain to me how Social Security interest accrues at 2% per annum, and every other form of pension earns much, much more.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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Kasz216 on 24 April 2009
akuma587 said:
Which markets are you referring to? Comparing private schools to public schools is an inherently futile process since private schools have to deal with so much less, although there is plenty of room for public schools to improve. And state governments share the largest share of the blame.

National defense is the only area I can think of where the government has been truly wasteful in recent years. That and farm subsidies.

I am certainly for entitlement reform though. It is going to take a lot of work to get those in line. Cutting benefits, raising the eligible age, raising payroll taxes, etc.

Healthcare... actually.

Medicaid & Medicare accounts for 45% of healthcare costs in the US.

In 2002 it was 6.6% of GDP vs Private healthcares 8.1% of GDP.

Despite the fact that it covered even less people then it does today.  (Something like 16% of the insured population.)

http://www.iedm.org/uploaded/pdf/juin05_en.pdf

 



akuma587 on 24 April 2009
mrstickball said:
Akuma -

Explain to me how Social Security interest accrues at 2% per annum, and every other form of pension earns much, much more.

Because they spend the extra money.  I'm not saying that is a responsible thing to do at all, but that is the answer to your question.  But that certainly wasn't isolated to Republicans or Democrats.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Kasz216 on 24 April 2009
akuma587 said:
mrstickball said:
Akuma -

Explain to me how Social Security interest accrues at 2% per annum, and every other form of pension earns much, much more.

Because they spend the extra money.  I'm not saying that is a responsible thing to do at all, but that is the answer to your question.

 

Hey that's the same reason there isn't any money in the Automakers funds for paying Autoworkers healthcare and pensions.

This will end well.

 



akuma587 on 24 April 2009
Kasz216 said:
akuma587 said:
Which markets are you referring to? Comparing private schools to public schools is an inherently futile process since private schools have to deal with so much less, although there is plenty of room for public schools to improve. And state governments share the largest share of the blame.

National defense is the only area I can think of where the government has been truly wasteful in recent years. That and farm subsidies.

I am certainly for entitlement reform though. It is going to take a lot of work to get those in line. Cutting benefits, raising the eligible age, raising payroll taxes, etc.

Healthcare... actually.

Medicaid & Medicare accounts for 45% of healthcare costs in the US.

In 2002 it was 6.6% of GDP vs Private healthcares 8.1% of GDP.

Despite the fact that it covered even less people then it does today.  (Something like 16% of the insured population.)

http://www.iedm.org/uploaded/pdf/juin05_en.pdf

 

That was the example you already gave...and Obama is already taking steps to address this problem because it is a problem that needs to be fixed.  I agree that it should be fixed. 

But at the same time people yell and scream that the government is "rationing" healthcare.  I guess its OK if insurance companies do it but not if the government does.  I never really did understand that.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Kasz216 on 24 April 2009
akuma587 said:
Kasz216 said:
akuma587 said:
Which markets are you referring to? Comparing private schools to public schools is an inherently futile process since private schools have to deal with so much less, although there is plenty of room for public schools to improve. And state governments share the largest share of the blame.

National defense is the only area I can think of where the government has been truly wasteful in recent years. That and farm subsidies.

I am certainly for entitlement reform though. It is going to take a lot of work to get those in line. Cutting benefits, raising the eligible age, raising payroll taxes, etc.

Healthcare... actually.

Medicaid & Medicare accounts for 45% of healthcare costs in the US.

In 2002 it was 6.6% of GDP vs Private healthcares 8.1% of GDP.

Despite the fact that it covered even less people then it does today.  (Something like 16% of the insured population.)

http://www.iedm.org/uploaded/pdf/juin05_en.pdf

 

That was the example you already gave...and Obama is already taking steps to address this problem because it is a problem that needs to be fixed.  I agree that it should be fixed. 

But at the same time people yell and scream that the government is "rationing" healthcare.  I guess its OK if insurance companies do it but not if the government does.  I never really did understand that.

And it's still a valid unadressed point.

Also The problem is.  Companies don't do that.

They give you differing plans and you get to choose what you think you may or may not need.  You can pick and choose your healthcare.

You would be able to do this even more except there are government regulations so that you can't get partial coverage for some stuff... for example thanks to regulations... even if you have no history of heart disease and eat heart healthy, you can't cut out money by saving on the "heart insurance."

Either way... if a private company says "we aren't going to pay for this anymore" you can say "Ok.  I'm out." and leave.

What the government does is decide what healthcare coverage you get... without you having any imput.  Meaning you have to pay for it... yet have no say... and if you can't get what you want... your screwed... unless your rich enough at this point to pay for the treatment yourself.

Which is much more expesnive then private insurance.  Furthermore private insurance is much more expensive... and when you pay out of pocket for anything National Healthcare governments drop you and you can't get treatment paid for anymore.  Additionally you have less money to pay for anything because you've been forced to pay for it all this time.