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Forums - General - Two Al Qaeda Leaders Waterboarded 266 Times

TheRealMafoo on 22 April 2009
akuma587 said:

This is designated in the Army Field Manual as torture. Its obviously pretty clear that even people high up in the military believe this is an impermissible tactic.

 

5-75. If used in conjunction with intelligence interrogations, prohibited actions include, but are not limited to—

  • Forcing the detainee to be naked, perform sexual acts, or pose in a sexual manner.
  • Placing hoods or sacks over the head of a detainee; using duct tape over the eyes.
  • Applying beatings, electric shock, burns, or other forms of physical pain.
  • “Waterboarding.”
  • Using military working dogs.
  • Inducing hypothermia or heat injury.
  • Conducting mock executions.
  • Depriving the detainee of necessary food, water, or medical care.

 

This implies that it’s possible to use these techniques in other situations. It also never makes mention of them being torture, only inhuman and ineffective.

As for their effectiveness, Obama’s national intelligence director disagrees with that manual.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/21/obama.memos/index.html



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akuma587 on 22 April 2009

Try those arguments in a court of law and see how they hold up. The Army Field Manual isn't the only thing that dictates what qualifies as torture. Even if you comply with the Army Field Manual doesn't mean you aren't breaking the law. There are specific federal laws about torture.

Just because something works doesn't mean you can or should do it. Shooting everyone who crosses the border illegally would be a great way to stop illegal immigration. Killing every Muslim in America would be a great way to stop potential terrorist threats. Allowing police to arrest people and throw them in jail without probable cause would probably lead to less crime.

I find all this blatantly ironic too considering the quotes in your signature. You complain about giving the government power, but you have no problem with this kind of thing.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

halogamer1989 on 22 April 2009

That should be the least of their worries. Imagine if the Saudis or Egyptians got hold of them. Crucifixion anyone? No the problem here is that The Agency is keeping America safe in a manner that officials with a Chamberlain-esque ideology do not like. My former HS history teacher worked at Camp X-ray. Specially served meals 3x a day, nice Qu'rans, exercise time, fully stocked library, and more is something the terrorists should appreciate. Any other country would just kill them on the spot.



The Ghost of RubangB on 22 April 2009

Hey halogamer, did you read the letter by General Petraeus?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/other/petraeus_values-msg_torture070510.htm

And are you saying that every single country in the world tortures and/or murders their prisoners of war?



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Sunday Fundays

highwaystar101 on 22 April 2009

Chamberlain??? Joseph or Neville??? It doesn't matter both are local heroes in my city



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akuma587 on 22 April 2009
The Ghost of RubangB said:

Hey halogamer, did you read the letter by General Petraeus?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/other/petraeus_values-msg_torture070510.htm

And are you saying that every single country in the world tortures and/or murders their prisoners of war?

Notice how halogamer changed his avatar...it was General Petraeus.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

halogamer1989 on 22 April 2009
The Ghost of RubangB said:

Hey halogamer, did you read the letter by General Petraeus?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/other/petraeus_values-msg_torture070510.htm

And are you saying that every single country in the world tortures and/or murders their prisoners of war?

Petraeus takes this position for 2 reasons: he know which way the (public sentiment) wind blows as a CENTCOM commander (and doesn't prohibit it, I might add) + his liberal background education-wise.

No, I meant that almost every other country would have taken care of them, esp Middle Eastern countries which is a FACT, hate to break it to you.

 



akuma587 on 22 April 2009

Yup. Its because Petraeus is a liberal and he is a sissy who just changes his opinion based on public sentiment. Couldn't have anything to do with the fact that he respects the Constitution and is a decent human being.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

halogamer1989 on 22 April 2009
akuma587 said:
Yup. Its because Petraeus is a liberal and he is a sissy who just changes his opinion based on public sentiment. Couldn't have anything to do with the fact that he respects the Constitution and is a decent human being.

I never said that.  I said that his prior ed in DC may have made him more liberal on some issues.  I have a copy of the Const on my desk right now.  The fact is the Founders did not see terrorists as an enemy in today's situation.  Sure they had pirate run-ins but they did not have to worry about US Hezbollah and al-Qaida cells that could be activated in a phone call's notice. Would you defend your country at war or sit on the sidelines like Neville Chamberlain.  This is the ultimate question.

 



akuma587 on 22 April 2009

The fact is that the Founding Fathers didn't distinguish between citizens and non-citizens in the relevant rights in the Bill of Rights. I don't see any words in there that say you have to be a citizen of the United States to qualify.

Eighth Amendment

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

Fifth Amendment

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson