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Forums - PC - Apple responds to new MS ads

Dragonos said:

@gameover
lern2paragraph please. i rather see a wall of text (so that i know to skip over it) than be assaulted by stupid bullet points (in continuous-sentence form, if that makes sense) hoping to find a nugget of wisdom. simply put - most people don't enjoy macs because of the giant premium attached to them (a computer of similar specs to my laptop when i bought it would've easily been over 600 dollars more, but again, we all know macs are overpriced anywhere outside their near immediate launch date of a newer model), don't enjoy the culture that seems to follow mac users (you are a shining example of that, as well as the "i'm a mac" ads), or just simply dont enjoy the OS (i.e, me).

Anyways, a legitimate question to mac users - is there really that much of a problem with installing software on a PC when compared to a mac? The only times i ever have hiccups in the process is with a scratched CD (which is to be expected) or when the software is in a different language, and even then i know where the "next" buttons are so I can usually work my way through it.

I ask because i keep seeing how macs are so "Easy to use" and yet i personally dont see it (my personal expiriences with macs are actually frustrating when trying to get them to do what i want them to do, but then again, im native to windows). Someone mind explaining why this claim exists (as in, why is a mac easier to use than a windows / linux)? The only thing that comes to mind is that you'd get far less compatibility issues concerning hardware (since, like someone else noted - on windows you might get 80 word processors while a mac would have 8 or so, so less chances for problems to occur).

someone mind answering this for me? (i do not mean any offense with the last two paragraphs, its a legitimate question that confounds me).

edit: looks like twesterns' confused about the same thing that i am...nice to know im not alone?

As much as I dislike these kinds of threads and all the hate flying back and forth, this is a legitimate question and I will try to answer it based on my own experiences. Before that, however, you might want the check out this article:

Living on Air: A Windows guru spends two weeks with a Mac

Ok, now onto my answer. I'm sorry that it is so long, but I feel that I need to get into detail to express my points.

1. Installing programs: the Windows way is to have a software installer Wizard that guides you through the installation process. So, you end up making some selections (such as where to install, language etc.) and clicking Next a couple of times before the program is installed. There are some programs on OS X that come with installers similar to that, but the majority of programs are actually "self-supporting" packages, meaning that the program icon you see actually contains everything the program needs. For those programs, installation is a simple copy-operation: you copy the program anywhere you want, most commonly in the Applications folder. If you want to uninstall a program, simply delete/drag it to trashcan. Both ways have pros and cons, but I can make an argument that the drag-to-Applications is easier, though an installation wizard is not much harder to be honest.

2. General ease of use. This is a thing that is a bit difficult to explain because it is a factor of a great number of things. The foundation is that the OS X is a coherent entity: things work the same way everywhere. Once you get the hang of it, you can use different applications easier since the UI is coherent, and that is thanks to the Cocoa API and Apple design guidelines. That's the foundation that wasn't there in Windows at least up to XP, I haven't used Vista or 7 so I don't know how they are.

On top of the foundation, there are a number of extremely useful features that I use daily in my work. Exposé, Spotlight search, TimeMachine backups and QuickLook are the most useful ones, and now that I have gotten used to them I can't really think of going back to working without them. They are really invaluable tools. I use Spaces (virtual desktops) a bit, but the OS X implementation does leave a lot to be desired so I don't include it here.

Then, in addition to the abovementioned, there are a number of smaller but still very useful features/apps that are part of the OS. One example is the virtual keyboard: want to know where you can get a certain special character from your keyboard? Just click the virtual keyboard open, and you'll see what key does what in real time as you press control, alt, shift etc. And you can of course type using the virtual keyboard and mouse/trackpad. It's not needed very often, but it can be handy on those occasions.

One of the biggest shortcomings of XP was the atrocious networking control it had. I use my computer on several different wireless networks, some of which require different settings. OS X has built on networking location profiles that are easy as 1-2-3 to create, so I just set up the networks once and I'm done with it. With XP I had to manually change the settings for different networks whenever I changed location, again I don't know how Vista handles this. It probably is a lot better than XP.

Also, the way OS X handles external displays is IMO far superior to what I've encountered in Windows, though even OS X is not a hundred percent perfect. But it does remember the external displays I have used, and the display setup I used with them so when I plug that projector in to give a presentation, I don't have to care about the settings. And when I use a projector/display for the first time, I don't go through the fn-f5 or whatever button merry-go-round that I see so often on PC laptop users do when they are connecting to a projector: I go to the System Preferences -> Displays and click "Recognize displays" and it does just that and right there I can choose the layout and resolution of my display setup.

One example of "how things just work" is when I captured video for the first time. I connected my DV camera with a firewire cable, opened iMovie and clicked import video button and that was it. Afterwards, if you want to burn your movie to DVD or export it to Web, iMovie seamlessly connects with iDVD and iWeb. Which all connect with iPhoto and iTunes as well. My entire iPhoto library is accessible right from inside iMovie, as is my iTunes library. And the same goes for all the iSuite programs. While the programs themselves are limited, they work so well together that using them is relatively easy even for a total newbie.

The last thing I'm going to mention is the hardware. You may think that it is 100% same as PCs, but it is not. While a majority of the components are exactly the same, the case is not. The displays are different at least in that Apple displays are "greener" than other laptop manufacturers' displayes. The chassis is different and the design and build quality is IMO far superior, even moreso now with the UniBody Macs. There is of course the MagSafe connector which is really handy, and there is the IR remote control that goes with FrontRow to remotely control multimedia functions (though sadly the IR remote is nowadays not included in the package, my MBP had it). The last thing I'll mention is the trackpad with multi-touch support. My own old MBP only has two-finger scrolling and nothing else, but even that is just incredibly handy. The newer models have pinch in/out for zoom, two-finger rotate, two-finger tap for right click, three-finger scroll, and some four finger gestures for Exposé. You can customize the controls, of course, but the default setup is well thought-out.

That's it for now. There are many more things I could mention, but I hope I have managed to explain a bit why I think OS X is easier to use than Windows or Linux. Yeah, I do have some very limited experiences of Linux, and those experiences have not been really supporting that idea that Linux is particularily easy to use.



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gameover said:

apple is very innovative even the mouse that u are using now started getting mainstream because of macs

and is not only the mouse is many other things

 

dont live in denial

 

;p

Widnows didn't even exist back when the mouse was introduced. Then because of Apple's very own crap they got annihilated (could have the apple OS only on apple HW, but you could have Windows on ANYTHING). They are doing the same thing now, and I can't wait until they get their asses whooped.

 



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

@plaupius
It was never about ease of use. Linux is not even cose to being easy to use at the start. The point is functionality. I can just DO more with a Windows and Linux sstem than with a Mac system. Ease of use or not, if i can't do as much ease of use is pointless, and even if the same, not worth THAT much. Basically, assuming you work 25 dollars an hour. for those 500 ucks, you have to work 20 hours. In 20 hours youwill become a pro at Linux.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

vlad321 said:
gameover said:

apple is very innovative even the mouse that u are using now started getting mainstream because of macs

and is not only the mouse is many other things

 

dont live in denial

 

;p

Widnows didn't even exist back when the mouse was introduced. Then because of Apple's very own crap they got annihilated (could have the apple OS only on apple HW, but you could have Windows on ANYTHING). They are doing the same thing now, and I can't wait until they get their asses whooped.

 

You might want to check the history of Apple before making such claims...

Actually, before Jobs came back to the rescue and Apple was really screwed, Apple was licensing the OS for 3rd party manufacturers. The first thing Jobs did when he came back was to stop that and although you clearly don't like it, the recipe for Apple's succes has been the closed HW. So, in the beginning they did that, and it worked ok but not great, then they opened up and it was a disaster, and then they closed again and it is been working wonders for them.



Plaupius said:
vlad321 said:
gameover said:

apple is very innovative even the mouse that u are using now started getting mainstream because of macs

and is not only the mouse is many other things

 

dont live in denial

 

;p

Widnows didn't even exist back when the mouse was introduced. Then because of Apple's very own crap they got annihilated (could have the apple OS only on apple HW, but you could have Windows on ANYTHING). They are doing the same thing now, and I can't wait until they get their asses whooped.

 

You might want to check the history of Apple before making such claims...

Actually, before Jobs came back to the rescue and Apple was really screwed, Apple was licensing the OS for 3rd party manufacturers. The first thing Jobs did when he came back was to stop that and although you clearly don't like it, the recipe for Apple's succes has been the closed HW. So, in the beginning they did that, and it worked ok but not great, then they opened up and it was a disaster, and then they closed again and it is been working wonders for them.

Well eys they started after they noticed wtf was happening. What Gates did was brilliant. He didn't care who or what had Windows. If you had enough money you could put it on anything you manufacture. Meanwhile Apple just kept their OS on macintoshes. That screwed them because there was such an overwhelming number of cheaper PCs with windows.

 



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

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vlad321 said:
@plaupius
It was never about ease of use. Linux is not even cose to being easy to use at the start. The point is functionality. I can just DO more with a Windows and Linux sstem than with a Mac system. Ease of use or not, if i can't do as much ease of use is pointless.

Actually, the ease of use is the key issue here. If you totally disregard it, you can to ANYTHING and EVERYTHING a Windows or Linux can on a Mac, you just need to do it all yourself. Pick up XCode and start hammering code.

How much have you actually used OS X? Honestly?



@gameover: I think some of what you're saying is lost in translation, but your aggressive assertiveness with the several gaffes you made do not give a positive impression.

Neither a "hackintosh" running OS X and Windows nor a genuine Apple running OS X and Windows are emulating anything.  Both are running on native Intel hardware.

You also keep asserting how one may boot windows on a Mac.  Why would I want to have to reboot and switch OSs for different applications?  Yes, you can boot windows, but if you can do everything you can do with a Mac in Windows, but you can't do everything a Windows PC can do on a Mac, why even boot into the Mac OS?

I know a lot of people like the style and the ease of use it provides, but I honestly only feel limited when I use a Mac.  Macs are not known for the upgradability nor their diverse software.  Hell, most software seems to be more expensive on a Mac.  I tried to find a good text editor for script editing and the solution I found was much more limited and overall clunkier than the freeware text editor I use on my PC (PSPad).

Also, I find Windows to be much much more customizable.  I am one who actually loves an icon dock.  I use RocketDock on the bottom of my screen which is similar to the OS X Dock.  I also use tools like WinRoll to customize my UI the way I like it to work.  Yes, these are features that are accomplished on the Mac, but they are also accomplishable on a PC.

As for the media industry, the reason why most still use Macs is because of training.  This goes back to the early 90s when Macs were much more usuable for graphic work.  Also, Apple donated a lot of computers to educational institutes in return for grants guaranteeing that peoples training was usually done on a Mac.  Then there's firewire which allowed transfer speeds between hardware at speeds which dwarfed USB 1 and  anything else.  Firewire, or IEEE 1394, was created by Apple giving them a huge advantage with Media as it became the standard for a/v equipment.  Firewire is now much more accessible on a PC.

So what it comes down to is this:

Pros:

  • Apples are easy to use
  • Apples are not as often targeted by malware
  • Apples DO compare in price to higher end PCs

Cons:

  • Why dual boot Windows when you can just use Windows?
  • Lower end PCs have ~90% of the functionality for a franction of the price.
  • Not as upgrade friendly

I have the utmost respect for Apple.  I defended them through the late 90s while their System was a crash happy pain in the ass.  My first computer in 1985 was an original Macintosh which I used up until the early 90s.  OS X is in actualty an impressive OS based on BSD which is a step in a positive direction for computing.

BUT, the smugness which Apple has been extruding from their "I'm a Mac" ads have really made me start disliking the company.  The absolute fanboyism by Apple fans, parishiners of the Church of Apple, have become so deluted by their holy prophet, Steve Jobs, that they can almost be likened to another dubious church (Granted Mac fanboys have always been a bit extreme).

 

In Closing:

Macs are great.

Acknowledge that all OSes have flaws.

PCs are good at what they do (which is almost everything).

Linux is awesome at what it does.



Plaupius said:
vlad321 said:
@plaupius
It was never about ease of use. Linux is not even cose to being easy to use at the start. The point is functionality. I can just DO more with a Windows and Linux sstem than with a Mac system. Ease of use or not, if i can't do as much ease of use is pointless.

Actually, the ease of use is the key issue here. If you totally disregard it, you can to ANYTHING and EVERYTHING a Windows or Linux can on a Mac, you just need to do it all yourself. Pick up XCode and start hammering code.

How much have you actually used OS X? Honestly?

 

I had to use OSX my entire last year in college, since my brother needed the windows laptop. It's nice and easy to get into, looks pretty yes. First I lamented playing games as much, then I lamented the fact SOME apps didn't have an equivalent, but I got around that with enough digging (ease of use?). Then I just lamented the utter openness of Linux (though I would have been one of those whose HW had gotten fried with that driver). The point is I got by with using it, I just lacked small obscure apps which no one would port from Windows, or the quickness of a nicely  modified Linux (the linux boxes at work are friken AMAZING). Also I don't belive macs have been prooven in large-scale networks have they? By large-scale I mean corporations with offices all over the world. Does Apple even have a corporation department?

Also upgrading harware is a fuckign bitch.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

vlad321 said:
Plaupius said:
vlad321 said:
@plaupius
It was never about ease of use. Linux is not even cose to being easy to use at the start. The point is functionality. I can just DO more with a Windows and Linux sstem than with a Mac system. Ease of use or not, if i can't do as much ease of use is pointless.

Actually, the ease of use is the key issue here. If you totally disregard it, you can to ANYTHING and EVERYTHING a Windows or Linux can on a Mac, you just need to do it all yourself. Pick up XCode and start hammering code.

How much have you actually used OS X? Honestly?

 

I had to use OSX my entire last year in college, since my brother needed the windows laptop. It's nice and easy to get into, looks pretty yes. First I lamented playing games as much, then I lamented the fact SOME apps didn't have an equivalent, but I got around that with enough digging (ease of use?). Then I just lamented the utter openness of Linux (though I would have been one of those whose HW had gotten fried with that driver). The point is I got by with using it, I just lacked small obscure apps which no one would port from Windows, or the quickness of a nicely  modified Linux (the linux boxes at work are friken AMAZING). Also I don't belive macs have been prooven in large-scale networks have they? By large-scale I mean corporations with offices all over the world. Does Apple even have a corporation department?

Ok. Before switching over to Mac, I used Windows since I think 3.0, though at the time I was just a kid. The only program I have missed and haven't found a good alternative to is IrfanView, for everything else I have either the same program (such as Opera, FF and Microsoft Office) or an OS X alternative, some of which are about the same as the Windows counterparts, some of which are better. I'm actually kind of curious, what kind of apps where you missing?

About the Macs and the enterprise, I'm not really sure if Apple has an enteprise division, but it is clearly not their priority. They have made some advances in that direction during the past few years, but nothing really major to show their commitment, sadly.



Plaupius said:
vlad321 said:
gameover said:

apple is very innovative even the mouse that u are using now started getting mainstream because of macs

and is not only the mouse is many other things

 

dont live in denial

 

;p

Widnows didn't even exist back when the mouse was introduced. Then because of Apple's very own crap they got annihilated (could have the apple OS only on apple HW, but you could have Windows on ANYTHING). They are doing the same thing now, and I can't wait until they get their asses whooped.

 

You might want to check the history of Apple before making such claims...

Actually, before Jobs came back to the rescue and Apple was really screwed, Apple was licensing the OS for 3rd party manufacturers. The first thing Jobs did when he came back was to stop that and although you clearly don't like it, the recipe for Apple's succes has been the closed HW. So, in the beginning they did that, and it worked ok but not great, then they opened up and it was a disaster, and then they closed again and it is been working wonders for them.

Actually, you might want to check your history of Apple before making such claims ;) ...

Nah, I kid.

But really most would argue that Apple's downfall was their closed hardware.  Apple was dominant in the 80s, but lost nearly all their marketshare far before they opened their software up to 3rd parties.  By the time they did start allowing third parties they were far below 10% marketshare.  And even then the royalties they requested were a bit much.

Also, Steve Jobs' rescue mission was really OS X.  Steve Jobs had headed NeXT computers before returning to Apple.  Apple actually bought NextStep from Steve Jobs which is the foundation that OS X was built on.  OS 7,8,9 were decent operating systems, but OS X really made the Mac stand out and gave it that asthetic flare it needed to compete.

But in all actuality, if it wasn't for the iPod, Apple wouldn't have had the capital to stay in the fight at all.