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Forums - General Discussion - Tea Parties: Whats really going on?

Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
Let me break it down for you.

AA tells a company that if you have two candidates for employment who both meet the required credentials, you have to pick the minority candidate IF and ONLY IF your minority quota has not been fulfilled.
The whole reason it was enforced was because Equal Opportunity did not then exist in the workforce and still doesn't (It may not be as bad as it was, but the hiring biases are still there).

It's a common misconception that less qualified minorities are taking jobs from the "whites who deserve them", but if that scenario actually did happen, those white people would be able to file for a discrimination suit (but they don't, because they know the qualifications were met).

Can't two people meet the same qualfications for something... and one person be more qualified?

I think you seem to be missing that.

 

If that is the case, like I said, they have a discrimination suit on their hands. People are quick to blame "the system" than let their pride take the hit.

If you want to keep harping on the fact that white people are more qualified, well a) that's racism right there, and b) whites have better education opportunities than minorities, referencing back to that 90% which I mentioned in the above post.



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theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:

Being poor has nothing to do with it. Having a crappy life has nothing to do with it.

No it doesn't give me resentment because 90% of the time (and trust me that is a pretty accurate statistic) I will get a job easier than the black man will.

 

Hooray.  You'll get a job at Wal-mart easier while the black person will get to go to college and get a real job.  I'm sure that will be a big comfort.

 

No kasz, that 90% applies to school application as well as everything else.

  Black men earned about 78 cents on the dollar for every dollar white men earn. Black women earn about people earn 68 cents for every dollar white people earn (these figures are lower depending on where you look).

(source is not exactly a peer-reviewed journal, but I can assure you this is the reality)

 

Funny thing about that.

It doesn't account for socioeconomic differences.

In this case... mostly sociological.

 



theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:

I do know better, than you. It was one of the most racist things I've read by someone who claims they aren't racist. But hey, that's the kind of racism that is called "unconcious bias", and it is actually very common.

Because you've been conditioned to believe that AA perpetuates racism,  even though the same racism exists throughout the world. Obviously something besides AA perpetuates it.

Studies have shown that employers unconsciously prefer white males over everything else. AA does not perpetuate it compensates. I really cannot believe you won't even budge in your thought. You are 100% sure that you are right and you don't care about anything else.

Have you had your "race and gender" psych class yet?  When you do you'll understand why your interpreting the studies wrong.

 

mind clarifying your argument? I've done more than taken classes I've done research of journals and meta compilations. I want to know what you think you are right about.

 

Well.  If you've actually done your research you'd know a few things.

1) Black owners and managers would rather hire White people then Black people.  Are black people racist against themselves?  Reasons why often stem from culture issues.  Tied to race but distinctly different.

In general there is a prevelent belief... among most people that American black culture is somewhat self destructive at the moment and problematic.  It's not an unfair arguement.

Hence, why the interview process is important.  This is also where research tends to fall apart... since it's almost impossible to get credible research on a interview basis.  Most models that include an interview process tend to have huge flaws in it's research. 

When you take out the interview process the "culture" issue doesn't go away.  Culture is still a big worry.  As such people fall back on stereotypes.   Stereotypes exist for a reason.    The problem is when stereotypes come in play even after exposure to the person wanting to be hired.

2)  In some disciplines such as Law Affirmitive Action has been shown to hurt students rather then help them... as black students end up in Law schools "above their heads"... and tend to be in the bottom of their classes, and often drop out or fails the bar.

3) At one point racism against Asians was as bad as it was against blacks.  Currently asians are actually the "best" race to be a part of employment wise.  Pretty much everything but getting into a school.  Asians actually tend to get hurt most by Affirmitive Action.



Viper1 said:
theprof00 said:
Let me break it down for you.

AA tells a company that if you have two candidates for employment who both meet the required credentials, you have to pick the minority candidate IF and ONLY IF your minority quota has not been fulfilled.
The whole reason it was enforced was because Equal Opportunity did not then exist in the workforce and still doesn't (It may not be as bad as it was, but the hiring biases are still there).

It's a common misconception that less qualified minorities are taking jobs from the "whites who deserve them", but if that scenario actually did happen, those white people would be able to file for a discrimination suit (but they don't, because they know the qualifications were met).

I'm well aware of what AA is.  My entire poitn is grounded on the basis of what you just said and if you don't think this kind of special treatment generates resentment, you really need to research it.

 

I know that it generates resentment. Unfortunately, it's a small side effect. However, the pros greatly outweigh the cons. If blacks were getting equal opportunity from the start, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So you can go on resenting, but here are the facts:

Go to school, get straight A's and you will have no problem for the rest of your life. Just remember that a black male is going to have to work twice as hard to get a taste of what you already have.



Also... in your own article...

"Black women earned a median income of $21,000 in 2004, almost equal to that of white women."



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theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
Let me break it down for you.

AA tells a company that if you have two candidates for employment who both meet the required credentials, you have to pick the minority candidate IF and ONLY IF your minority quota has not been fulfilled.
The whole reason it was enforced was because Equal Opportunity did not then exist in the workforce and still doesn't (It may not be as bad as it was, but the hiring biases are still there).

It's a common misconception that less qualified minorities are taking jobs from the "whites who deserve them", but if that scenario actually did happen, those white people would be able to file for a discrimination suit (but they don't, because they know the qualifications were met).

Can't two people meet the same qualfications for something... and one person be more qualified?

I think you seem to be missing that.

 

If that is the case, like I said, they have a discrimination suit on their hands. People are quick to blame "the system" than let their pride take the hit.

If you want to keep harping on the fact that white people are more qualified, well a) that's racism right there, and b) whites have better education opportunities than minorities, referencing back to that 90% which I mentioned in the above post.

Ugh... you seem to not realize this is a socioeconomic issue.

Not a racial issue.

You should of been taught this in your Race and Gender class.

It's common stuff for both Psych and Soc Race and Gender classes.

That's not even an issue.  Affirmitive Action is supposed to make up for past racism.  Not current racism.

It's supposed to treat the fact that black people are poorer on average... which hurts education on average... this hurts their chances to get jobs on average, which hurts the perception of affrican americans, which keeps education lower.

None of this has to do with racism at all.  Except for past racism.



Also... please tell me you know HOW income gap is calculated.

Cause they just make median averages. They don't account for the tons of other issues that exist that aren't race related.

Hence why White Women and Black Women make almost the same.

Also why asians basically tie white men... and asian women do better then both white and black women. Are people more racist against White women then Asian women?

When you account for all factors.... you'd be surprised. 

The current problems tend to be culturally based and transformative assets.

For example... even when all situations are equal.  Whites tend to have a wealth gap... do to transformative assets.


The problem is... these are also issues white and asian families suffer from.



Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:

mind clarifying your argument? I've done more than taken classes I've done research of journals and meta compilations. I want to know what you think you are right about.

 

Well.  If you've actually done your research you'd know a few things.

1) Black owners and managers would rather hire White people then Black people.  Are black people racist against themselves?  Reasons why often stem from culture issues.  Tied to race but distinctly different.

YES! There is an actual racial divide within the black community; not only because of skin tone but also against the community as a whole. The community is in a very complex and turbulent situation.

In general there is a prevelent belief... among most people, that American black culture is somewhat self destructive at the moment and problematic.  It's not an unfair arguement.

That is true

Hence, why the interview process is important.  This is also where research tends to fall apart... since it's almost impossible to get credible research on a interview basis.  Most models that include an interview process tend to have huge flaws in it's research. 

This is where I did a lot of research. In an interview, as you wrote, biases tend to dissappear. However, it is in the initial reading of the resumes where most people are weeded out. This is why it is always a good idea to follow up persistently and ask for an interview. These are not "flaws", they are solutions.

When you take out the interview process the "culture" issue doesn't go away.  Culture is still a big worry.  As such people fall back on stereotypes.   Stereotypes exist for a reason.    The problem is when stereotypes come in play even after exposure to the person wanting to be hired.

2)  In some disciplines such as Law Affirmitive Action has been shown to hurt students rather then help them... as black students end up in Law schools "above their heads"... and tend to be in the bottom of their classes, and often drop out or fails the bar.

First I would like to know what study that was, and why it was only certain disciplines that affected them. It is a proven fact that the majority of the black family is a single parent unit with no father figure. How would you expect someone to complete an ~eight year endeavor with 78 cents to the dollar and half the support of family members as well as a lower income bracket?

3) At one point racism against Asians was as bad as it was against blacks.  Currently asians are actually the "best" race to be a part of employment wise.  Pretty much everything but getting into a school.  Asians actually tend to get hurt most by Affirmitive Action.

Not to belittle the Asian-American experience, but I don't remember Asians being enslaved in this country for 200 years. Or not allowed to drink out of a water fountain or how they got sprayed with firehoses and chased by dogs just for marching for equal rights. I'm just glad black people still can't marry each other....

Yes Asians are no longer considered minorities, at least in the college application process. But that is also offset because they are in a higher tax bracket, have tighter family unit, and have a higher prevalence of college attendance.... statistically speaking.

 

 



Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:

If that is the case, like I said, they have a discrimination suit on their hands. People are quick to blame "the system" than let their pride take the hit.

If you want to keep harping on the fact that white people are more qualified, well a) that's racism right there, and b) whites have better education opportunities than minorities, referencing back to that 90% which I mentioned in the above post.

Ugh... you seem to not realize this is a socioeconomic issue.

Not a racial issue.

You should of been taught this in your Race and Gender class.

It's common stuff for both Psych and Soc Race and Gender classes.

That's not even an issue.  Affirmitive Action is supposed to make up for past racism.  Not current racism.

PAST RACISM IS CURRENT RACISM!!

It's supposed to treat the fact that black people are poorer on average... which hurts education on average... this hurts their chances to get jobs on average, which hurts the perception of affrican americans, which keeps education lower.

What are you talking about!?! How does AA hurt education??????

None of this has to do with racism at all.  Except for past racism.

Past racism and history is the reason why people are racist today!

 

 



Here I see a problem.

You are using statistics to promote one kind of discimitory behavior... (against asians) and decrying statistics when used for another type. (Against african americans)

You stated yourself. Lower economic stauts+ Less support+ Single parent families. Aren't these more likely to be the causes of said problems in the first place?