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Forums - General - Bush Era Torture Memos Released

Rpruett said:
NJ5 said:
Rpruett said:
NJ5 said:
@Rpruett: If Iran attacked one country in the European Union we wouldn't need the USA for protection. The combined armies of the EU can easily defend any of its nations.

Stop saying nonsense.

 

Thank you for making my point exactly.  And when you say EU.... (France, Germany, Etc)  AKA : the heavy hitters in the region.  Like I said, it's easy to take shots from a tiny country that has to worry very little about national security in any tangible way. Let alone military threats.

It's the nature of the beast.

Are those heavy hitters like UK (which also got attacked by terrorists) torturing people after it?

No, they aren't. So no one is "taking shots" at those.

 

Again you're being very, very naive if you don't think other 'larger' countries 'torture' people.

 

Show me the proof, captain. Vacuous comments like that are just a waste of everyone's time.

Also, don't engage in the "they do it too" falacy. It only shows how weak your point is if you have to resort to it.

 



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Orca_Azure said:
lol @ insect torture. The terrorists don't mind blowing them selves up, but dammit don't stick a grasshopper next to them.

The point was to make the alleged terrorist think he could be stung by a potentially deadly insect. It's mental torture, not physical torture in this case.

 



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Rpruett said:
Rath said:

The argument but they killed innocents, so therefore we should use torture on people who might be innocent completely ignores the fact that the USA is meant to be a civilised society with laws and rights while 'they' are terrorists. Sinking to their level is a very bad idea because you'll be sinking for quite a long time.

People who are not citizens of this country and have no desire to be a working part of this country other than it's downfall don't deserve the same rights and liberties fought for by many others.   If you need to get information, this is the single handed most effective technique.

So its rights for Americans and not for non-Americans? I thought America had signed up to the idea that human rights are universal with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Bill of Human Rights?

In any case torture is generally not thought to be the most effective technique as prisoners will generally say lies to try and get it to stop. Any evidence obtained by torture is highly unreliable, hence why its not allowed in court.

 

Also stop playing it off like America is a big daddy protector to Europe, America always looks after America. It showed this in WWI and WWII where it didn't enter until it was, or its citizens were, attacked.

 

America and a few other countries provide protection to just about all the others.   Sure America looks after America.  That doesn't mean that European countries aren't protected. If Iran wanted to come up and romp all over Belgium or Portugal or whomever else.  Why wouldn't they?    The collective, protective shield of the big guys in Europe / America.

Europe yes, America not so much. In the case of any invasion in Europe the first countries to respond would be members of the European Union. Also the reason why Iran wouldn't romp all over Belgium or Portugal is geography, have you seen how far apart those countries are?

Note that these members of the EU are not (to the best of our knowledge) engaging in torture, hence your argument doesn't mean anything.

Again,  America is in a far different position than New Zealand or Belgium or Portugal.  The responsibility is much greater. The ability to maintain security and safety of the country is far more difficult.  It's really easy to take pot shots at the USA when you live in a country roughly equal to the size and population of 'one' of our states.

Actually its really easy to take pot-shots at the USA when they claim to be a beacon of freedom and democracy and then engage in some highly questionable practices. I find it much harder to take pot shots at the other large Western countries such as Germany, United Kingdom and France because they all have better records on human rights in modern times.

 

 



bump, good read



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akuma587 said:
I would probably qualify as a terrorist in Tyrannical's book.

 

 No, just naive.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

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I think it is naive to believe that you can't effectively fight terrorism while also upholding the Constitution. Or that we are fighting for anything meaningful if we don't uphold the Constitution during the times where it actually matters and those rights are in jeapordy.

I also think it is naive to believe that engaging in questionable military interrogation practices doesn't potentially create a greater risk of terrorist attacks in the future by providing a rallying point for terrorists. The things that happened at Abu Gharib were a terrorist dream. They could be used to convince even rational people that the United States was just as evil as the terrorists claimed.

You can't win the war if all you are concerned about is winning individual battles. You can win that battle but still lose the war.



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It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

akuma587 said:
I think it is naive to believe that you can't effectively fight terrorism while also upholding the Constitution. Or that we are fighting for anything meaningful if we don't uphold the Constitution during the times where it actually matters and those rights are in jeapordy.

I also think it is naive to believe that engaging in questionable military interrogation practices doesn't potentially create a greater risk of terrorist attacks in the future by providing a rallying point for terrorists. The things that happened at Abu Gharib were a terrorist dream. They could be used to convince even rational people that the United States was just as evil as the terrorists claimed.

You can't win the war if all you are concerned about is winning individual battles. You can win that battle but still lose the war.

 

 What you consider "humane" and "compassion", the terrorists consider a sign of weakness and an open invitation to attack.

You're like a sheep trying to convince a pack of wolves that eating grass is the way to go. The wolves just get a good chuuckle out of it before they eat you.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

Tyrannical, you keep insulting akuma but ignoring his point.

Destroying the Constitution to protect the Constitution is just as crazy as seceding from the Union to protect the Union.



Tyrannical said:
akuma587 said:
I think it is naive to believe that you can't effectively fight terrorism while also upholding the Constitution. Or that we are fighting for anything meaningful if we don't uphold the Constitution during the times where it actually matters and those rights are in jeapordy.

I also think it is naive to believe that engaging in questionable military interrogation practices doesn't potentially create a greater risk of terrorist attacks in the future by providing a rallying point for terrorists. The things that happened at Abu Gharib were a terrorist dream. They could be used to convince even rational people that the United States was just as evil as the terrorists claimed.

You can't win the war if all you are concerned about is winning individual battles. You can win that battle but still lose the war.

 

 What you consider "humane" and "compassion", the terrorists consider a sign of weakness and an open invitation to attack.

You're like a sheep trying to convince a pack of wolves that eating grass is the way to go. The wolves just get a good chuuckle out of it before they eat you.

Ok then let me ask you this.

What do you believe the USA is fighting for?

 





 

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