The Xbox line is not and won't be a "success" until it actually starts returning a profit and digs itself out of the $5,000,000,000 hole it's made.

Microsoft bought themselves a place at the table by doing things like buying Bungie and throwing $50,000,000 at GTA4 for exclusive content. The fact that they're not the world leader in console sales is a kick in the teeth, and to add insult to injury, they're being beaten by a company with a fraction of MS's net worth who doesn't throw $50,000,000 moneyhats around.

Considering the investment MS has made, the Xbox is still categorized under the "dismal failure" heading from a business perspective and, if I were a MS shareholder, I would be pretty pissed that they've managed to spend $5 bil to earn 2nd place two gens in a row.

As for the Square news, it's true that they never would have said something like that those years ago, but they're still 10-20 SE exclusives away from it making a difference to the current state of the 360.

I know the 360 is a good console with some great games on it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not a permanent fixture in the gaming world until the Xbox line can stand on its own without MS pumping money into it to keep it alive. 

Nobody outside the Final Fantasy RPG type will care about anything Square Enix chews out. And to be honest, I don't see the 360 fanbase as the RPG types.

 (Don't counterargument me with Oblivion BS. That game was way more an action adventure game than RPG. RPG in my book is basically turn-based, dialogue-based).

Yeah, Oblivion and FF couldn't be further apart. Oblivion is a western sandbox style RPG whereas FF is a very eastern "set path" RPG.

bah I don't think this will mean much. However, if MS is able to get FFXIII on the 360 I will not be a happy camper. I will deal with it sure, but like I said many times before I don't want to see MS winning this generation.

I don't see FF13 as being the end-all of this generation. God knows, FF12 certainly wasn't, as it sold half of what FF games usually do.

^^ Yeah, when you hear some people talking about FFXIII you´d think it´s the light at the end of the tunnel, or somekind of game to end all games, sure it´s a big game but pointing to a future game and saying thats the one that will turn tides and krown the winner is kinda sad... but maybe thats just someone speaking who isn´t impressed with FF.

People have to remember that Microsoft entered a market with 2 extremely tough competitors, a Japanese culture that doesn't seem to warm up to consoles made by outside companies, a backlash because of who they are in the computer software industry, and without the nostalgia advantage their competitors have.

Why do people bash them for trying to gain marketshare in Japan? At least they're trying to get good games (they went after GTAIV pretty hard at a time Sony was taking Take Two for granted) and they're willing to give money to see great games made for the system, from a gamer's point of view what's wrong with that? At the very least more good games are being made because of it.

Also about the people saying it's not a success because Microsoft is pouring billions into it, I say so what?  Is it money coming out of your pocket?  If they're willing to spend money to get great games who exactly loses?  (Besides Microsoft shareholders and with the billions in profit at Microsoft they aren't hurting in the least.).  Will it pay off in the end?  I guess we won't know until 10 or 15 years from now but it's obvious from what Steve Ballmer has said that they're going to be in this for the long haul.

Wow thats really big news, NOT.

 And, as has been mentioned before, the only way they've been able to stay afloat in that market is via what's basically a multi-billion-dollar loan from Microsoft's other divisions. They've also failed to attract Japanese developers through tactics other than throwing money at them, and they really don't have many good exclusives (most of the system's good games are, at the least, cross-platform with the PC.)

 People aren't bashing MS for trying so hard to woo the Japanese market. They're bashing MS for trying so hard to woo the Japanese market and still failing miserably. There's a big, big difference.

 Finally, the 360 is not a success because, the way MS is currently handling the product, it isn't conducive at all to a sustainable business model. If MS doesn't end this generation with a profit, it's going to be very difficult to imagine an XBOX 720 succeeding, and so on. Eventually, they'll be forced to give up without ever making a dime, unless they somehow pull a Nintendo and adopt a radically different strategy.

Exactly.

I suspect that the whole "Games for Windows" push and the Xbox Live for Windows project are both aiming to take the current gaming market they've built on the 360 and move it over to to the PC if this generation ends and the 360 hasn't returned a profit.

Why else would they be porting Live (a service and a system which are supposed to be a selling point of the Xbox line) over to the same PC that everyone already owns?

MS's business model is immensely profitable...if you subtract the hardware costs. The hardware is what's put them in the 5 billion dollar hole and I'm sure the extending of warranties due to the RROD ain't making it any easier. Besides, most FF games wind up on the PC anyway. MS could just as easily charge their licensing fees there for any game which intends to make use of Live, sell controllers and other peripherals designed to make use of "Games for Windows" and they'd finally be free of the burden of making hardware.