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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Are wii development costs really cheaper?

Esa-Petteri said:
Kasz216 said:
Esa-Petteri said:
Kasz216 said:
Esa-Petteri said:
Kasz216 said:

Yeah... that's not counting any work to the unreal engine.  Including the improvements they made to the unreal engine while doing so.

It's a pitch for them to say "Hey use Unreal Engine".


"Rein acknowledged that $10 million is by no means cheap, "but didn't cost the crazy figures you hear other companies quoting of $20, $30 million." The budget does not include development costs of Epic's Unreal Engine 3, but this was not designed solely for Gears of War, plus the developer has saved money by outsourcing work to Epic Games China."

So yeah... if your willing to not count any work at all put forth to your product AND willing to outsource to people who will work for nothing.

So yeah... considering how expensive engine development is....  (That extra 10-20)  There ya go.

Of course if you liscense from them you have to pay their liscensing fees per game plus like a 7-8 figure payout on top.

Why would you count the development of UT3 engine to Gears of war dev costs? You surely know that UT3 engine is used on many other games too.

Do you know how much they outsourced? Since people in China work for free according to you, why there aren't more devs outsourcing there? Do you have some figures for salaries of those chinese coders?

 

Oh, so you are saying that an engine costs 10-20 million to make. Since engine has nothing to do with hd-graphics, isn't that the same price for wii game engines?

 

 

That's actually what Rein said.  You know.  The UT guy. 

Also... yeah the Engine does deal with graphics...

 

Ok, could you give me a link where he said that chinese coders work for free? How about where he said that UT3 dev costs should have been added to gears dev costs.

I actually meant that the engine costs are the same for wii/hd games. I don't think that models/artwork is done by the game engine. If I am wrong about that then my bad. :P

 

Chinese workers work for free?  The outsourced work to the chinese counted in the 10 million.

The Engine costs aren't the same for Wii/HD games.  HD engines are more expensive because the tools need to be more complicated.

Look at what the Unreal Engine does.

The whole "10 million development cost" was a marketing pitch.

In otherwords.  Liscense our game and after that it will cost you like 10 million to make a gears type game instead of the crazy 20-30 million other people are throwing out.

Read the first article in your google link.

http://www.videogamer.com/news/gears_of_war_has_cost_10_million_to_produce.html

Look around more and you'll see where he says "It doesn't have to cost that much if you liscense the engine from us."

 

You said that "willing to outsource to people who will work for nothing. " which would be free. Do you know the salaries of those chinese coders? I guess you have to, since you claim that kind of stuff. Go ahead and compare those salaries to what US/EU coders make and count how much they saved. Untill then, they could have saved anywhere starting from 10$.

Graphics aside, how could a game engine which does the same cost more on HD consoles than on wii? Assuming that you are not comparing wii sports engine to UE3. I really don't see where else you can save on developing on wii than textures/models.

So are you trying to say that they lied about the development costs or what is your point?

 

Did you read what the Unreal Engine does?  Do you know what a videogame engine is?

Game Engines don't cost the same on HD consoles as they do the Wii.

 



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Also

http://www.payscale.com/research/CN/Job=Software_Engineer_%2F_Developer_%2F_Programmer/Salary

1 CNY = 0.14 U.S. dollars

So your average Chinese programmer makes about $13,500 at optimium pay.

So you save about $60,000 per programmer per year.



Mr Khan said:

Wii games fetch more profit, if less revenue, so it depends on how it incorporates into your strategy. But as a rule of thumb, it is just cheaper.


Case closed!

PSN - hanafuda

theRepublic said:
How about comparing similar games? The Conduit and Killzone 2 are both exclusive FPS that are supposed to push the limits of their respective consoles. Development costs on Killzone 2 has been estimated to be between 30 and 60 million dollars. The Conduit has been estimated at 10 million.

Only we have yet to see if The Conduit will sell. Also, just look at your sig. What do dev costs matter if nobody is interested in publishing the game?

PSN - hanafuda

Yes, they are. Capcom has said they moved Monster Hunter 3 to the Wii due to higher PS3 development costs:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/high-ps3-costs-prompt-capcom-to-move-to-wii

Someone from Polyphony Digital has also said PS3 development is much more expensive than PS2 development, due to higher detail in the car models:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2007/12/kazunori-yamauchi-dishes-more-gran-turismo-5-details.ars

Surely the Wii is between PS2 and PS3 in terms of costs.

There's also THQ:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6149154.html

And the famous graph from Factor 5:

http://i32.tinypic.com/10glffn.jpg

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

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@Esa-Petteri

Are you purposely being obtuse or do you really not know what a game engine is and what it does?

A large, extremely high end HD engine like Unreal 3 is a hell of a lot more difficult, time consuming, and expensive to develop than a SD engine.

Its common practice for engine developers to create essentially a glorified game/depo to showcase their engines under the idea that demonstrating it works a lot better for marketing it than putting out a brochure. This same reason why is Crytek developed Crysis, it was to showcase and market the Crytek engine. The money they make from selling the game is just the bonus.

Thats why they advertised it was only 10 mil, because they are saying to their prospective clients to "BUY THIS ENGINE AND ONLY SPEND 10 MIL!". A lot of the costs of KZ2 also went into making the engine.

Epic likely made more money from licensing the Unreal engine than they did from selling GeOW (though reusing the engine for GeOW2 and likely GeOW3 would increase those profits).

In any case, you all forgot the costs of creating high definition assets. Go search in my post history, there's a link to polyphony stating that the time it takes to render a car model for GT went from ~couple of weeks in PS2 to ~6 months per car on the PS3. That is where all your extra time and money went.



darconi said:
@Esa-Petteri

Are you purposely being obtuse or do you really not know what a game engine is and what it does?

A large, extremely high end HD engine like Unreal 3 is a hell of a lot more difficult, time consuming, and expensive to develop than a SD engine.

Its common practice for engine developers to create essentially a glorified game/depo to showcase their engines under the idea that demonstrating it works a lot better for marketing it than putting out a brochure. This same reason why is Crytek developed Crysis, it was to showcase and market the Crytek engine. The money they make from selling the game is just the bonus.

Thats why they advertised it was only 10 mil, because they are saying to their prospective clients to "BUY THIS ENGINE AND ONLY SPEND 10 MIL!". A lot of the costs of KZ2 also went into making the engine.

Epic likely made more money from licensing the Unreal engine than they did from selling GeOW (though reusing the engine for GeOW2 and likely GeOW3 would increase those profits).

In any case, you all forgot the costs of creating high definition assets. Go search in my post history, there's a link to polyphony stating that the time it takes to render a car model for GT went from ~couple of weeks in PS2 to ~6 months per car on the PS3. That is where all your extra time and money went.

Likely nothing.  They make something like 1 Million a liscense i hear.  I think like over 100 games have liscensed the thing.

 



@darconi: The quote from Polyphony Digital about the cost of making car models for GT5 is in one of the links I posted. Here it is:

"In GT and GT2, both for PS1, a designer spent a day to model a car. In GT3 and GT4, for PS2, the same worker spent a month modeling the same car due to the increased amount of polygons. In GT5 for PS3, they require six months to do the same job," Yamauchi explained.



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

NJ5 said:
@darconi: The quote from Polyphony Digital about the cost of making car models for GT5 is in one of the links I posted. Here it is:

"In GT and GT2, both for PS1, a designer spent a day to model a car. In GT3 and GT4, for PS2, the same worker spent a month modeling the same car due to the increased amount of polygons. In GT5 for PS3, they require six months to do the same job," Yamauchi explained.


Great, I had forgotten where I found it. Also to point out, there's a good portion of game designers who are only part time or are outsourced/hired as needed. I believe graphic asset creators may be among those. There's a lot more asset creators now than they used to be. Heck SMB used the same art for the clouds as for the bushes! Can't do that anymore...

The number of people, on this site, who believe that good games will come to the Wii via some magical "Wii development is cheap" reasoning is astounding. Free lunch much? Have your cake and eat it too? Come on you guys. Some common sense to read between the lines here.

This is a silly discussion, and a totally bogus one, from the spin Nintendo, and Nintendo fanboys like to put on it. Wii games ARE cheaper, on average, that's a fact. Wii games are rated MUCH lower by critics, on average, another fact.

When you take the tiny moment it takes to see through the PR smoke, the likely ~50% it takes to develop a serious effort on the Wii (not 1/4 -- what a joke. Look up "average" in the dictionary, and then count the number of shovelware titles available on the Wii), relative to a serious effort HD console, is outweighed by the fact that any serious marketing effort, and reduced revenue per unit, not to mention demographic scatter, etc. will balance the numbers in the end for the publishers.

It is very difficult for a publisher to target a large enough demographic on the Wii, unless they shoot at the "casual" genres. That's why they don't spend big bucks on other games, and that's why they like to blow Nintendo's horn, and pretend they are supporting the Wii fanbase, by touting the Wii's cheap average dev costs (in the past) as reasons to develop on it.

Ask yourself, if the Wii is so easy to develop for, so cheap, why don't we see more high-end games for the Wii, from 3rd parties? Surely the mere pennies they have to spend on the awesomeness of a Wii title will yield pure gold? Or has it? Is it, instead, likely that the reason Wii games rate so much lower, on average, is that, on average, less is spent on creating them -- I think so.

Publishers are struggling with Wii profits, because of the shovelware efforts on the Wii, plain and simple. I think we can name about as much "w00t, we got lucky" titles on the Wii as we can on PSN and XBL. Publishers can't rely on lucky breaks to succeed in the long-term.

The "Wii development is cheap, on average" argument is moot. All shovelware is cheap, on average. This has nothing to do with the Wii itself.  If publishers actually believed the drivel about dirt-cheap Wii development themselves, we'd see nothing but shovelware on the Wii, and if it was true, the publishers would be rich already, and Wii games would largely be lauded as being spectacular, not crap.

Is low-budget shovelware what you really want, as a Wii owner?  End the ridiculous "develop on the Wii, because its cheap" reasoning now, if you don't.  Go with "develop on the Wii, because the Wii is popular", because that's the reason the publishers should start spending some money on individual Wii titles.