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Forums - General - Is abortion a crime against humanity?

CaseyDDR said:
DaveD said:
Example of why that statement is invalid.
Say a woman was raped, you want her to keep the baby as a reminder of her tragedy?
I honestly think he's jus saying that to stir up trouble. Nobody in their right mind would keep a rape victim's child. Let it happen to him someone close and I will put any amount of money in the world he'd have that bastard child aborted immediately. RU486 style.

You may underestimate the strength of his convictions. Of course, you may believe that makes him "not in his right mind".



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Final-Fan said:
CaseyDDR said:
DaveD said:
Example of why that statement is invalid.
Say a woman was raped, you want her to keep the baby as a reminder of her tragedy?
I honestly think he's jus saying that to stir up trouble. Nobody in their right mind would keep a rape victim's child. Let it happen to him someone close and I will put any amount of money in the world he'd have that bastard child aborted immediately. RU486 style.

You may underestimate the strength of his convictions. Of course, you may believe that makes him "not in his right mind".

 

I thuoght conviction and close-mindedness were synonyms....



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Tyrannical said:
fmc83 said:

 

Oh boy! Yep, let's create a market, where people start to make babies to sell them. I wonder if this was just a shot, or if you even thought about for a second, what this means? I guess not. Shows, that you got no idea about simple economical structures, nor human rights, nor common sense.

 

Again, you produced a small sentence, which offers a simple solution and causes big trouble if thought through.

Whats wrong with that as long is there demand? Lots of couples would like to adopt.

Instead of an unwanted pregnancy "ruining" their life, $20k could help put them through trade school.

 

 

I didn't want to, but as you answer and I respect everyones opinion, let's really go deep in this and just in the specific case of the USA (some points would still be valid outside of the US though). Just too many question pop up in my brain, which would be great if you could answer them!

 

- according to several institutes the abortion rate is falling in the USA. I assume here because people think more about it and that's good.

 

- so if you would introduce a "business model" of getting money off selling children, wouldn't this raise the birth rate?

 

- Do you know any market which wasn't saturised at some point? So let's assume the market starts being in this state, while selling children became a "business model". That surely leads too more abortions, which you can ever expect, and that just in a couple of months.

 

- Even if a market would work, which babies would be the ones big amounts of money would be paid for? Definitely not the ones whose parents come from ethnical groups whose background lies in 3rd world countries (no racist thinking behind this from me, but it would be just cheaper to "import" a baby from africa i.e. anyhow)

 

- so it leaves the poorest, I hereby assume, the latest immigrants and the lowest class which unwanted babies, which they can choose to sell for a couple of hundred bucks.

 

- And still how would society react, if you would sell your baby? And how if you'd sell it for a couple of hundred bucks or let it be 1 grand?

 

- Selling a child, doesn't this sound wrong anyhow to you?

 

- What about the children themselves? What to tell them, when they've grown up? Hey darling, we bought you for 10k $ as a baby? How would you react to this?

 

- Isn't it human nature to find out where you've come from?

 

And all these points are just relevant to my statement, that you seem to have no idea about economical structures, nor human rights, nor common sense.

But let's go back: That's not even all problems I can think of, but I reckon it's enough for now. So what do you think of them?



fmc83 said:

 

I didn't want to, but as you answer and I respect everyones opinion, let's really go deep in this and just in the specific case of the USA (some points would still be valid outside of the US though). Just too many question pop up in my brain, which would be great if you could answer them!

 

- according to several institutes the abortion rate is falling in the USA. I assume here because people think more about it and that's good.

I bet it's still over a million a year in the US

- so if you would introduce a "business model" of getting money off selling children, wouldn't this raise the birth rate?

Yes, but the US birth rate is not high and we don't have an over population problem, especialy if immigartion was restricted.

- Do you know any market which wasn't saturised at some point? So let's assume the market starts being in this state, while selling children became a "business model". That surely leads too more abortions, which you can ever expect, and that just in a couple of months.

Well, paid adoptions can be an alternative to abortion. As demand falls, so will supply to match it. Woman that make a business out of it would have to have particuarly desirable genes. I would think just unwanted pregnancies could fulfill demand.

- Even if a market would work, which babies would be the ones big amounts of money would be paid for? Definitely not the ones whose parents come from ethnical groups whose background lies in 3rd world countries (no racist thinking behind this from me, but it would be just cheaper to "import" a baby from africa i.e. anyhow)

It would be based on demand. There is a severe shortage of white babies available for adoption, so I would expect demand for them to be higher. Though when Hollywood stars have to go to third world countries to adopt, you know there must be high local demand.

 

- so it leaves the poorest, I hereby assume, the latest immigrants and the lowest class which unwanted babies, which they can choose to sell for a couple of hundred bucks.

I think it costs $30K-$50K and months/years of paperwork to adopt an unwanted third world baby. But I think you'll find it's not recent immigrants having abortions.

 

- And still how would society react, if you would sell your baby? And how if you'd sell it for a couple of hundred bucks or let it be 1 grand?

Society accepts abortion. I think giving a couple that wants a baby is a better alternative.

 

- Selling a child, doesn't this sound wrong anyhow to you?

Not compared to abortion. Is selling sperm or eggs wrong? Is adoption wrong?

 

- What about the children themselves? What to tell them, when they've grown up? Hey darling, we bought you for 10k $ as a baby? How would you react to this?

Well, you could always tell them how lucky they are to be alive, literarily. Is there that much stigma to adoption still? Is it different then a woman going to a sperm bank? Better gene quality sperm costs more money.

 

- Isn't it human nature to find out where you've come from?

Yes, but is this any worse then adoption, or being the product of artifical insemination? Eggs and sperm can be bought for that.

And all these points are just relevant to my statement, that you seem to have no idea about economical structures, nor human rights, nor common sense.

But let's go back: That's not even all problems I can think of, but I reckon it's enough for now. So what do you think of them?

 

 



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

"It would be based on demand. There is a severe shortage of white babies available for adoption, so I would expect demand for them to be higher."

I take it there is not a shortage of black babies in the adoption pool? So disallowing black abortions would severely flood the market?



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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Tyrannical said:
Final-Fan said:
Tyrannical said:
Woman should be able to sell their babies for cash. It would cut down on abortion, and the adoption demand for babies far out strips the supply.
The buying and selling of human beings, how can such an idea go wrong?
I'm willing to give it another try.

See, the thing is, this sounds like a joke.  It SHOULD be a joke.  But you're not joking. Or at least you're also serious, which is still a problem.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Allowing poverty and the suffering that goes along with it to exist in this day and age is a FAR greater transgression against Humanity than abortion.



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Final-Fan said:
"It would be based on demand. There is a severe shortage of white babies available for adoption, so I would expect demand for them to be higher."

I take it there is not a shortage of black babies in the adoption pool? So disallowing black abortions would severely flood the market?

 

 There is high demand all around for babies. That's why so many couples are forced to look over seas, and then they often can't get the adoption finalized before the child is 3 or 4. It would be much better all around to adopt a native born baby.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

Final-Fan said:
"It would be based on demand. There is a severe shortage of white babies available for adoption, so I would expect demand for them to be higher."

I take it there is not a shortage of black babies in the adoption pool? So disallowing black abortions would severely flood the market?

Interetingly, parents usually don't have a problem with raising black children.

It's just interacial parenting is frowned opon... and many would rather keep black babies "in waiting" rather then give them to other parents.

It's a sad situation really.

Also adoption basically already is selling children.  Private adoption anyway.  Which sadly is better then public adoption.



So the adoption agencies are the problem, not the parents? That's sick.

As for the other, non-profit vs. for-profit is a line I think they really, really shouldn't cross.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!