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Forums - Microsoft - Ex-Bungie Dev, Christian Allen, Confirms Killzone 2 Can Be Done On Xbox360

slowmo on 02 April 2009
Rpruett said:
Squilliam said:
@ Shadowblind & Rpruett:

Heres another one. Sony pushed the envelope and Microsoft didn't, FACT. Microsoft relied on third party exclusives with generic engines whilst Sony PS3 games have been far more expensive and had far more developer effort thrown at them.

 

That is an interesting thing to note (And I would agree). This actually could lend to the 360 gaining some performance.

Although I would also say that the 360 doesn't have nearly the reliance on a engine designed specifically for it,  since it is far more similar to a PC. Which is a large part as to why the 360 was so easy to develop for in the first place.  It fit like a glove.  The PS3 on the other hand diverted from that formula.  Taking the HL2 engine to the PS3 off of the PC is a total pain in the ass for the developers, not so for the 360. 

Otherwise, Microsoft wouldn't be using generic engines.

 

And I really don't believe that Sony has spent 'that much more'  on their games than Microsoft has.  I've yet to see tons of concrete proof to that theory either.

 

There is a significant number of developers who have stated on record the PS3 is harder to develop for.  In simple pure number terms that must mean they cost more to code for if more time is put into the coding stage.  Obviously nobody knows an actual figure of how much more this process costs other than developers but certainly over the first couple of years while the PS3 tools were immature in comparison to the 360's the extra time would have been significant, perhaps now the difference isn't as great though.

As others have stated, there hasn't really been any need to go extreme yet with development on the 360.  Microsoft have already stated they will have a game on 360 that looks better than KZ2 so perhaps they may actually sink a lot of money into a future title to be sure of this claim (Halo 4?). 

Can the 360 do KZ2, nobody will ever be able to prove either way so the debate is pointless.  Neither side of the discussion will be swayed on their viewpoint.



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heruamon on 02 April 2009
Procrastinato said:
Rpruett said:
Squilliam said:
@ Shadowblind & Rpruett:

Heres another one. Sony pushed the envelope and Microsoft didn't, FACT. Microsoft relied on third party exclusives with generic engines whilst Sony PS3 games have been far more expensive and had far more developer effort thrown at them.

 

That is an interesting thing to note (And I would agree). This actually could lend to the 360 gaining some performance.

Although I would also say that the 360 doesn't have nearly the reliance on a engine designed specifically for it,  since it is far more similar to a PC. Which is a large part as to why the 360 was so easy to develop for in the first place.  It fit like a glove.  The PS3 on the other hand diverted from that formula.  Taking the HL2 engine to the PS3 off of the PC is a total pain in the ass for the developers, not so for the 360. 

Otherwise, Microsoft wouldn't be using generic engines.

The ease of 360 development mostly comes from its abstraction of threads, much like plain-ole Windows programming.

If you wanted to really squeeze the most out of it, you'd have to write to the metal, much like the PS3, except without the PS3 tools for doing so.  That may explain why the 360 hasn't really sparkled in KZ2 fashion, as yet -- going there kinda means you should have written your engine to basically be PS3 centric already -- thus, you probably aren't making a 360 exclusive, and much of the rest of your engine design will settle for least-common-denominator between the two consoles.  least available memory resources for textures, least disc space, no assumed HDD for streaming... the list goes on and on.

Only a MS first-party studio would ever care enough to write to the metal on the 360, and MS probably wouldn't want to foot the bill for doing so.  There you have the real reason the 360 will probably never have a game that exceeds the quality of KZ2 -- its not that its not capable, most likely.  More that no one will foot the bill for such a project, other than MS, and MS seems to be turning away from 1st party development.  

In other words, they won't, because they don't care to be #1 in quality -- only in income.  That might turn around and bite them someday, but... I dunno.  Has kinda worked for them thusfar.

 

 

 

Maybe that's what Alan Wake is going to do...



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

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Procrastinato on 02 April 2009
heruamon said:
Procrastinato said:

The ease of 360 development mostly comes from its abstraction of threads, much like plain-ole Windows programming.

If you wanted to really squeeze the most out of it, you'd have to write to the metal, much like the PS3, except without the PS3 tools for doing so.  That may explain why the 360 hasn't really sparkled in KZ2 fashion, as yet -- going there kinda means you should have written your engine to basically be PS3 centric already -- thus, you probably aren't making a 360 exclusive, and much of the rest of your engine design will settle for least-common-denominator between the two consoles.  least available memory resources for textures, least disc space, no assumed HDD for streaming... the list goes on and on.

Only a MS first-party studio would ever care enough to write to the metal on the 360, and MS probably wouldn't want to foot the bill for doing so.  There you have the real reason the 360 will probably never have a game that exceeds the quality of KZ2 -- its not that its not capable, most likely.  More that no one will foot the bill for such a project, other than MS, and MS seems to be turning away from 1st party development.  

In other words, they won't, because they don't care to be #1 in quality -- only in income.  That might turn around and bite them someday, but... I dunno.  Has kinda worked for them thusfar.

 

 

 

Maybe that's what Alan Wake is going to do...

 

Sadly I think that, merely by nature of being a PC crossplat, the 360 version is doomed to be not anywhere near as cool as it could be.  It'll still be good though, I imagine.



 

phinch1 on 02 April 2009
heruamon said:
Procrastinato said:
Rpruett said:
Squilliam said:
@ Shadowblind & Rpruett:

Heres another one. Sony pushed the envelope and Microsoft didn't, FACT. Microsoft relied on third party exclusives with generic engines whilst Sony PS3 games have been far more expensive and had far more developer effort thrown at them.

 

That is an interesting thing to note (And I would agree). This actually could lend to the 360 gaining some performance.

Although I would also say that the 360 doesn't have nearly the reliance on a engine designed specifically for it,  since it is far more similar to a PC. Which is a large part as to why the 360 was so easy to develop for in the first place.  It fit like a glove.  The PS3 on the other hand diverted from that formula.  Taking the HL2 engine to the PS3 off of the PC is a total pain in the ass for the developers, not so for the 360. 

Otherwise, Microsoft wouldn't be using generic engines.

The ease of 360 development mostly comes from its abstraction of threads, much like plain-ole Windows programming.

If you wanted to really squeeze the most out of it, you'd have to write to the metal, much like the PS3, except without the PS3 tools for doing so.  That may explain why the 360 hasn't really sparkled in KZ2 fashion, as yet -- going there kinda means you should have written your engine to basically be PS3 centric already -- thus, you probably aren't making a 360 exclusive, and much of the rest of your engine design will settle for least-common-denominator between the two consoles.  least available memory resources for textures, least disc space, no assumed HDD for streaming... the list goes on and on.

Only a MS first-party studio would ever care enough to write to the metal on the 360, and MS probably wouldn't want to foot the bill for doing so.  There you have the real reason the 360 will probably never have a game that exceeds the quality of KZ2 -- its not that its not capable, most likely.  More that no one will foot the bill for such a project, other than MS, and MS seems to be turning away from 1st party development.  

In other words, they won't, because they don't care to be #1 in quality -- only in income.  That might turn around and bite them someday, but... I dunno.  Has kinda worked for them thusfar.

 

 

 

Maybe that's what Alan Wake is going to do...

 

Ha can you show me some xbox screen shots for alan wake, o wait there all PC so far



Garnett on 02 April 2009
phinch1 said:
heruamon said:
Procrastinato said:
Rpruett said:
Squilliam said:
@ Shadowblind & Rpruett:

Heres another one. Sony pushed the envelope and Microsoft didn't, FACT. Microsoft relied on third party exclusives with generic engines whilst Sony PS3 games have been far more expensive and had far more developer effort thrown at them.

 

That is an interesting thing to note (And I would agree). This actually could lend to the 360 gaining some performance.

Although I would also say that the 360 doesn't have nearly the reliance on a engine designed specifically for it,  since it is far more similar to a PC. Which is a large part as to why the 360 was so easy to develop for in the first place.  It fit like a glove.  The PS3 on the other hand diverted from that formula.  Taking the HL2 engine to the PS3 off of the PC is a total pain in the ass for the developers, not so for the 360. 

Otherwise, Microsoft wouldn't be using generic engines.

The ease of 360 development mostly comes from its abstraction of threads, much like plain-ole Windows programming.

If you wanted to really squeeze the most out of it, you'd have to write to the metal, much like the PS3, except without the PS3 tools for doing so.  That may explain why the 360 hasn't really sparkled in KZ2 fashion, as yet -- going there kinda means you should have written your engine to basically be PS3 centric already -- thus, you probably aren't making a 360 exclusive, and much of the rest of your engine design will settle for least-common-denominator between the two consoles.  least available memory resources for textures, least disc space, no assumed HDD for streaming... the list goes on and on.

Only a MS first-party studio would ever care enough to write to the metal on the 360, and MS probably wouldn't want to foot the bill for doing so.  There you have the real reason the 360 will probably never have a game that exceeds the quality of KZ2 -- its not that its not capable, most likely.  More that no one will foot the bill for such a project, other than MS, and MS seems to be turning away from 1st party development.  

In other words, they won't, because they don't care to be #1 in quality -- only in income.  That might turn around and bite them someday, but... I dunno.  Has kinda worked for them thusfar.

 

 

 

Maybe that's what Alan Wake is going to do...

 

Ha can you show me some xbox screen shots for alan wake, o wait there all PC so far

Thats Xbox 360.



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RAZurrection on 02 April 2009
Rpruett said:
Shadowblind said:
Rpruett said:
Shadowblind said:

*sigh. Please at least try to come up with a decent reason to quote me the wrong way. We were not talking about it being easy in the way of it being hard or easy as in difficulty for programmers.

Its English, and saying something will "easily" happen means the chances are very high.

See; Alan Wake. Hur durr, Killzone 2 isn't "easily", written in your context, surpassed by Uncharted 2.

I cant believe there really are people out there who think the 360 is maxxed out. This isn't even sad anymore....

 

I wasn't talking about it being easy in the way of it being easy or hard for programmers either.   I don't think tons of games are going to come along and simply demolish KZ2 in terms of graphics.   The 360 is almost 4 years old, with hardware that was easy to reach near maximum potential on.   I don't see 'one' game in the 360's pipeline coming up that looks remotely as impressive as KZ2 looks.   When we get actual 360 screenshots of Alan Wake?  Maybe.    

Graphics don't drastically change that much (Especially the older the system is).  Sure the 360 might have some games that look a little better than they currently do but to actually surpass KZ2?  I don't think that will be an easy feat and I'm not so sure it will even be really 'easily' evident if a developer manages to do so.

 

I can't believe that there are really people out there whole think you spell maxed out,  maxxed out. That's how we do it in 'English'.  It is kind of sad really.   

 

 

Facts

- 360 is a year older than the PS3.  (Almost 4 years old total).

- PS3 despite being younger, holds what many would consider the best graphics in a game.

- 360 was notoriously 'easier' to develop for and has been from day one. 

- PS3 was notoriously 'harder' to develop for and has been from day one.

- Most of the 'gains' you see in terms of video game development /graphics over the progression of it's life cycle is generally due to becoming more familiar/comfortable with the hardware. By about four years in?  You're damn well comfortable with the hardware. 

- One could expect to have 'more' gains on a system in which you really just recently started feeling comfortable with over a system who you were very comfortable with a hell of a lot earlier


It stopped being sad a few years back; around the end of 2006 to be precise, and became pathetic. Or don't you remember....the 360 will never ever have a game that looked better then Gears of War one?

So what is making this arguement any different then that one? Oh, and some holes in your logic here....

- 360 is a year older than the PS3.  (Almost 4 years old total). It turned 3 years old just a few months back.

- PS3 despite being younger, holds what many would consider the best graphics in a game.  Wrong. Crysis. But thats not what I'm debating. Don't forget though, Gears of War was a champion in graphics for a loooong time.

- 360 was notoriously 'easier' to develop for and has been from day one. That never meant it was easy to develope for in the first place. Every console this gen has been harder to develope for then the past gen, and the PS2 especially was difficult last gen. With such logic, it will still be a few years to come before the 360 is maxed out, and the many  years before the PS3 is maxed out.

- PS3 was notoriously 'harder' to develop for and has been from day one. Look up.

- Most of the 'gains' you see in terms of video game development /graphics over the progression of it's life cycle is generally due to becoming more familiar/comfortable with the hardware. By about four years in?  You're damn well comfortable with the hardware. Look up again.

- One could expect to have 'more' gains on a system in which you really just recently started feeling comfortable with over a system who you were very comfortable with a hell of a lot earlier Yes they could. this makes me think your trying to get me to say "oh the 360 will always have better graphics then PS3" which is not and what I won't say. Stop trying to turn this into a PS3 vs. 360 argument. Its an argument about games that will pass Killzone 2 in graphics on 360.

 

You want Alan Wake screenshots? Can't say I have those, but heres the newest trailer, which isnt even new. With Alan Wake having pretty much NO details so far, its more then safe to assume this will only get better, long before its release. Don't forget to claim its the PC version though, this arguement wouldn't be complete without that.

http://xbox360.ign.com/dor/objects/743608/remedy-project-next-gen-title/videos/AlanWake_Cinematic_102108.html

 

I have yet to see ONE game on the 360 that looks better than KZ2.  I'm not some fanboy about it.  What game does the 360 have that looks better? What future game does the 360 have that looks better?  

Again, if the Alan Wake footage is done on the 360,  we might have a winner.  (I don't think it is) and until we have verifiable proof of that,  we can't say anything about it. I have yet to see one game.

This isn't about PS3 or 360 argument either.  Although you're trying to imply, that the 360 has games that will surpass KZ2 graphically with ease.   If they do, no one has saw them yet.   The PS3 MIGHT have some games coming that will surpass KZ2 with ease (GoWIII, GT5, Heavy Rain).

ID's Rage.

60FPS to KZ2 30fps

Split-screen co-op to KZ2's non-existant element

Sandbox levels to KZ2 linearity

Rpruett said:
The PS3 MIGHT have some games coming that will surpass KZ2 with ease (GoWIII, GT5, Heavy Rain)

Perhaps if they all tripled the graphics on what they've shown so far, which of course they're not going to.

What with Tech 5 and CryEngine on the horizon for developer consumption, it's going to be interesting to see how Sony keeps up with third parties, after RE5 knocked out MGS4 and upcoming releases looking worse then KZ2, it's safe to say KZ2 is like Motorstorm, graphically resplended for a while, same ol' same o'l 6 months later.

 



786_ali on 02 April 2009
Garnett said:
phinch1 said:
heruamon said:
Procrastinato said:
Rpruett said:
Squilliam said:
@ Shadowblind & Rpruett:

Heres another one. Sony pushed the envelope and Microsoft didn't, FACT. Microsoft relied on third party exclusives with generic engines whilst Sony PS3 games have been far more expensive and had far more developer effort thrown at them.

 

That is an interesting thing to note (And I would agree). This actually could lend to the 360 gaining some performance.

Although I would also say that the 360 doesn't have nearly the reliance on a engine designed specifically for it,  since it is far more similar to a PC. Which is a large part as to why the 360 was so easy to develop for in the first place.  It fit like a glove.  The PS3 on the other hand diverted from that formula.  Taking the HL2 engine to the PS3 off of the PC is a total pain in the ass for the developers, not so for the 360. 

Otherwise, Microsoft wouldn't be using generic engines.

The ease of 360 development mostly comes from its abstraction of threads, much like plain-ole Windows programming.

If you wanted to really squeeze the most out of it, you'd have to write to the metal, much like the PS3, except without the PS3 tools for doing so.  That may explain why the 360 hasn't really sparkled in KZ2 fashion, as yet -- going there kinda means you should have written your engine to basically be PS3 centric already -- thus, you probably aren't making a 360 exclusive, and much of the rest of your engine design will settle for least-common-denominator between the two consoles.  least available memory resources for textures, least disc space, no assumed HDD for streaming... the list goes on and on.

Only a MS first-party studio would ever care enough to write to the metal on the 360, and MS probably wouldn't want to foot the bill for doing so.  There you have the real reason the 360 will probably never have a game that exceeds the quality of KZ2 -- its not that its not capable, most likely.  More that no one will foot the bill for such a project, other than MS, and MS seems to be turning away from 1st party development.  

In other words, they won't, because they don't care to be #1 in quality -- only in income.  That might turn around and bite them someday, but... I dunno.  Has kinda worked for them thusfar.

 

 

 

Maybe that's what Alan Wake is going to do...

 

Ha can you show me some xbox screen shots for alan wake, o wait there all PC so far

Thats Xbox 360.

That doesn't look very impressive, it's good but you can't compare that with KZ2.

 



Initiating social expirement #928719281

Jo21 on 02 April 2009

that killzone 2 its a old built.

they were first view after all and the improved zed hair cut >_>



Procrastinato on 02 April 2009

That screen you posted from Rage doesn't look better than KZ2, to me. It only has one character, and a really insignificant background. I'd even be surprised if it was taken from the 360 version, especially since Rage is cross-platform with the PC, 360, Mac, and PS3.

I think you're dreamin', if you believe a crossplat will ever look better than KZ2 on the PS3 or the 360. If/when the 360 catches up, it'll be an exclusive for sure.

btw, that's a PC shot you posted, and frankly... it looks like it spent some time in Mr. Photoshop.  Notice the guy behind, not quite in sync with the environment... something a little... wrong.. with the way he's running, doncha think?  Lighting just a tad different between the two characters, the strange fuzzyness (not motion blur) around the back guy...  I can smell Photoshop from a mile away.

http://www.shacknews.com/screenshots.x?gallery=10444&game_id=4598&id=123915#img123915

 



 

XxXProphecyXxX on 02 April 2009

Huh really....then why don't they make a game that will go on par with KZ2 graphics instead of just talking? action speaks louder than words.