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Forums - General - Socialism and communism

That depends on the way you use the word.

In english "socialist" can have the same meaning as "social democrat" in most European countries, right?

I'd classify Obama as more of a social democrat (his policies have a European touch) but surely not a communist. Accusing Obama of being a communist is so 2008.



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Kasz216 said:
mrstickball said:
Final, no, it was more at saving the industry.

America will always need cars. If the big 3 collapsed, people would still buy cars. Just not from the big 3. There *are* other car manufacturers out there, and with their increased demand, they would hire some of the unemployed.

And given how atrocious the UAW is at managing employee benefits, the big 3 had done far too much to deserve an auto bailout. Why aren't Nissan, Toyota, or Honda looking for handouts, too?

They are actually.

Or at least it's expected. 

I don't know how you can blame the UAW... the Big 3 are the ones who granted them those benifits.  The UAW weren't the ones who were supposed to handle the money that pays for the retirees and employees benfits.  The Automakers were supposed to handle all that.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/090304-Toyota-Honda-Mazda-May-Ask-for-Government-Bailout/

Toyota wants $2 billion in loans from Japan vs. GM wanting $2 billion per month. Pretty large difference, no?

And yes, the automakers were supposed to handle all of that. They failed. So did the unions for asking for too much, and striking when they couldn't get their way. Auto employees are some of the laziest, most useless workers in America, and the UAW got them into a very cushy position using their brokering power(s). Because of that, the auto companies should file for Chapter 11, re-organize with new employees, and go forward, rather than the Big 3 keeping employees that are just too overpaid vs. the foreign rivals.

That's not to say that UAW workers are the only issue. It's the Big 3's fault for making inefficient, unreliable, bad cars year after year, while foreign rivals kept doing better. Their plants are also a mess in functionality. Why is it that GM, Ford and the rest can make money overseas, and lose so much here in the US?

 



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

mrstickball said:
Kasz216 said:
mrstickball said:
Final, no, it was more at saving the industry.

America will always need cars. If the big 3 collapsed, people would still buy cars. Just not from the big 3. There *are* other car manufacturers out there, and with their increased demand, they would hire some of the unemployed.

And given how atrocious the UAW is at managing employee benefits, the big 3 had done far too much to deserve an auto bailout. Why aren't Nissan, Toyota, or Honda looking for handouts, too?

They are actually.

Or at least it's expected. 

I don't know how you can blame the UAW... the Big 3 are the ones who granted them those benifits.  The UAW weren't the ones who were supposed to handle the money that pays for the retirees and employees benfits.  The Automakers were supposed to handle all that.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/090304-Toyota-Honda-Mazda-May-Ask-for-Government-Bailout/

Toyota wants $2 billion in loans from Japan vs. GM wanting $2 billion per month. Pretty large difference, no?

And yes, the automakers were supposed to handle all of that. They failed. So did the unions for asking for too much, and striking when they couldn't get their way. Auto employees are some of the laziest, most useless workers in America, and the UAW got them into a very cushy position using their brokering power(s). Because of that, the auto companies should file for Chapter 11, re-organize with new employees, and go forward, rather than the Big 3 keeping employees that are just too overpaid vs. the foreign rivals.

That's not to say that UAW workers are the only issue. It's the Big 3's fault for making inefficient, unreliable, bad cars year after year, while foreign rivals kept doing better. Their plants are also a mess in functionality. Why is it that GM, Ford and the rest can make money overseas, and lose so much here in the US?

That was true in the 80's.

If you've ever been to a modern car plant though... you'd see there are very few lazy workers there anymore.

The problems aren't with the workers... it's with the Management.  They run bad parts that they know can't be used for anything, and do all sorts of other usless moves to keep production up even when it's on scrap because you get judged on how many parts you stamp... not how many parts are actually usefull.

The Machines in car plants are constantlly running there is little chance to be lazy since the machines are all automated now.  The lazy workers ended when they got rid of the button presses and made them all modernized.

An example to how it works now would be... say you Askuma and I are working on a press...

and one of us notices a part has a divit or a bend or something we know won't run.

You'll hit the light to bring your sectional guy.  Tell him the problem.... he'll call the supervisor.  The supervisor wil come over... look at the parts.  Tell you to keep running them anyway, have the lift driver take it over to "repairs" where it will just sit until it's sent to scrap.

Then once your projected number of parts is stamped, they'll switch dyes and have the dymakers fix the dye.

Rather then what would make sense.... switching the dye immediatly and/or fixing said dye in the machine while the team gets shifted over to an empty machine.

The factories do a lot of useless work because the supervisors feel the need to stand out since they can be fired rather eaisly otherwise.



mrstickball said:
Final, no, it was more at saving the industry.

America will always need cars. If the big 3 collapsed, people would still buy cars. Just not from the big 3. There *are* other car manufacturers out there, and with their increased demand, they would hire some of the unemployed.

And given how atrocious the UAW is at managing employee benefits, the big 3 had done far too much to deserve an auto bailout. Why aren't Nissan, Toyota, or Honda looking for handouts, too?

If they go under because they aren't selling enough vehicles, that reduces the demand increase the others will experience.  And let's not kid ourselves, in the current situation the automakers will be pretty conservative about rapid expansion even if such a demand spike did happen.  So I'll let Kasz answer the UAW questions and just say that such an event would still have a catastrophic effect in certain regions. 



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akuma587 said:
Inflation actually helps people who owe money. It means that they essentially have to pay less real dollars than they did in the past.

The only people that inflation hurts is those with a lot of money. Hyperinflation is a different issue, and that helps no one.

You're kidding right?

Inflation is a tax on the poor.

Every economist out there will agree with that statement.



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TheRealMafoo said:
akuma587 said:
Inflation actually helps people who owe money. It means that they essentially have to pay less real dollars than they did in the past.

The only people that inflation hurts is those with a lot of money. Hyperinflation is a different issue, and that helps no one.

You're kidding right?

Inflation is a tax on the poor.

Every economist out there will agree with that statement.

Well some Economists actually do argue it helps some poor.

Really irresponsible poor people...

while it hurts hardworking poor people.

Wellfare benefits tend to rise higher then prices.

So the unemployed actually tend to make out ahead.

Inflation also sometimes leads to job creation, though not always.



the good news here in the UK, is that the banks are being forced to make money available to bussiness and mortgage holders again, took Brown longer than it should have, but at least now were getting a return for the bailouts



Final-Fan said:
Government gets 90% of every dollar spent? I call bullshit.

 

I did some digging, and the figure seems to be 25%.

 

In trillions in 2007:
States collect 0.75
Feds collected 2.674

GDP in 2007 was 13.84

 

So... 25% Yea, should have looked it up myself before I used that figure.

http://www.census.gov/govs/statetax/0700usstax.html

http://www.census.gov/govs/statetax/0700usstax.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

 



Well, we all know you would never go around and say things without facts to support them, Mafoo, so its alright.



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Its all about post cold-war paranoia, basically. The majority of adults today remember growing up hearing about "Red Joe" and what the russkies were going to do to them. Socialism is as much of a buzzword as "Hardcore" is in our own lexicon. It has a root in a realistic meaning, but its been debased of its value

 

Keynesian Economics has many similarities to socialism, but Keynesianism is merely the path of the world that cannot accept the brutal consequences of Laissez-Faire capitalism, nor wants to go full-blown Socialist or Communist. Real Communism only really exists in North Korea, Cuba, and possibly Laos nowadays. Even Vietnam has a stock exchange.

 

Also: The issue with the Detroit 3 is the fault of both Management and Labor, really. The whole Detroit corporate culture is too focused on the companies fattening their own wallets, for both groups, and not focusing on the consumer. Ultimately its a culture of stagnation, both management and labor like where they are, and neither really want to have to sacrifice anything to push the companies themselves forward



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