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Forums - Gaming - I'm so SICK of "bad ass" characters, dialogue, storylines and art design.

drboot on 17 February 2009
Akvod said:
drboot said:
rocketpig said:
badgenome said:

I dunno, this is a pretty old gripe. My feeling has always been that there are plenty of JRPGs that are just as cookie cutter and cringe-inducing. Just because the characters are all limp-wristed and fey doesn't make them any more original than the stereotypical bald space marines about whom certain segments of the gaming community always seem to be bitching.

I love Gears!

Agreed. Just as most FPS protagonists are hardcore "bad-asses", JRPG protagonists tip the scale in the other direction, often whining, moping, and dragging their asses from battle to battle with obnoxiously long introspective moments in between.

Some of the hardcore bad-asses don't bother me... Marcus being one of them. He gives off a feeling of "just get this over with" because he's been through so much in his life. The attitude fits. He just doesn't give a shit anymore. Many other protagonists abuse this idea but for some reason, it never irritated me with Fenix.

Most videogames are poorly written, no matter their origin. Picking on the "bad asses" is unfairly turning your eye on one small segment of a mountain of fermenting shit.

Oh, and Raiden was a horrible character. There's a difference between an emotional character and one you want to punch in the face because he won't shut up about how much he questions his existence, the world, and whatever else he happens to stumble across during battle. That's no better than one who screams "I'm gonna rip your f---ing throat out!" every time he steps into a fight. One dimensional, poorly written, and lame.

Nico from GTAIV is a much more fully developed character than Raiden and even he made me want to throw my controller at the television during points of the game.

 

How is an introspective character that questions his identity and the nature of his existence (which was the entire game was set up to do) one dimensional?

Raiden is the pinnacle of character development done right in gaming. He begins his mission cocky, "I'm the shit" kind of attitude. In truth we learn through various conversations with Rose that he is actually an insecure person, who questions his identity because of his upbringing as a child soldier without a real family. Once he broke away from his environment he creates a new persona -as suggested by Freud in the case of someone who escapes through dissaciation from the realities of life-. Because Raiden has been mentally and emotionally scared all his life he creates a cocky, "I'm the shit" attitude to hide his own vulnerabilities as a way to prevent others getting close to him -exploiting him and taking advantage of him as has been all his life. The empty room he sleeps in also speaks of this among many other aspects it symbolizes. Like Rose said, he only sees the things he wants and hides from the truths that conflict with the faux reality he has created for himself. An empty room contains no record of his identity, the one that he wishes to hide from, but it also symbolizes that he still has the ability to grow and take control over his own life, to grow and mature. -The empty room and white hair, admitted even by Kojima represents that sort of existential virginity that Raiden (and everyone) still has.

The confusion and manipulation of the Big Shell incident forces him to begin questioning his mission and those around him supplying him with false information -He begins doubting himself, in psychology it would be the equivalent of a "catharsis". -The uncertainties of his mission evoke the hidden uncertanties and vulnerabilities of his repressed persona. This is the part of the game where most people hate him because he comes off as an insecure "bitch".

During the final scenes of the game he manages to overcome his inner struggles by facing up to his past and present, because he has no where left to run on the Big Shell. He matures into a self assured man with a purpose, one capable of facing up to difficult questions and searching out the answers -the "truth" himself. He takes control of his own life, to forge his own future, his own identity -rather than let circumstance and environment (child soldier then big shell) control him any longer.

One could fill a book on the incredibly rich development of Raiden. The above is a very very general overview. MGS TUS just came back online, there are already numerous huge documents on the symbolism, thematic and character analysis of MGS2 and there will be more soon as people find the site again and submit their articles.

MGS2 and Raiden are among the most layered narratives/characters in the history of any medium, not just games. One dimensional? I don't see how.

 

O.O

... And you were complaining about KZ2's backstory? I haven't played MGS1-3, but I didn't really see the plot and characters as deep, but that there was simply a lot of back story and loose ends until the very last momment.

 

I think this thread needs to die. We all agree that any one demensional character and shallow story is not good. Most of us believe that video games don't require a good story to be good, as its main function is to provide fun gameplay. There's not much more to discuss except whether character/game X is stupid, bland, etc, which is not the topic of the thread, and is reliant of all the posters playing each respective game.

 

There we disagree. A survey carried out in Europe showed that the number one thing gamers want more of in their games is good storylines. I for one agree, and I do noy pay more than 20$ for any game that does not contain a well written narrative. If a game doesn't have a solid storyline, I wait a few years and buy it dirt cheap in the bargain bin because I don't think the value it justifies the price. I have several friends who only buy games with good storylines as well.



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TruckOSaurus on 17 February 2009

@drboot: So you'd pass up on Mario Galaxy or Metroid Prime just because the story isn't that deep?



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ssj12 on 17 February 2009
drboot said:

This is something I do not understand but has been poisoining our industry for years and is becoming ever more prevalent.

Everywhere I look gamers are drooling over how bad ass certain characters, games and even boxarts are.  Othertimes I see them complain about how a character isn't bad ass and that the game or character sucks because of it (Raiden to name the most infamous case)

Because of this companies are churning out cliche's and otherwise shit, one dimensional characters and storylines that have absolutely no depth. The dialogue in Gears of War, GoW2, Resistence, Killzone, Haze, hell, pretty much any big budget FPS or action game out there is becoming increasingly cringe worthy due to badly delivered, testosterone fueled lines consisting of 90% swear words. But gamers demand this, they reward it with mountains of praise on how "bad ass" certain, otherwise shallow elements of a game are.

This in return results in even more games delivering shallow storytelling, thinner and more cringe worthy scripts and one dimensional characters that are becoming more and more difficult to tell apart (see, big, bad space marines for the 21st century video game cliche).

Killzone 2 went even a step further, by not only including the mandatory, cringe worthy testosterone fueled dialogue but also throwing on huge, ridiculous gas masks with red glowing goggles onto enemy units for no apparent reason. Sure,  there was some half assed explanation given in  the backstory of their website, but it left so many plotholes that it's obvious that the masks were included with no other intention but to up the "bad ass" cred of the game.

It is literally taboo in western games for characters to show any emotion or weakness. It becomes instant "emo", hate material and offenders such as Raiden, JRPG characters and others become crucified in the "not bad ass enough hall of shame". Why do gamers place such an emphases on shallow, most often stupid and emotionless but "bad ass" characters? And more importantly, why do gamers virtually kill characters that conform to a more human standard -that have a sense of empathy, deal with emotional difficulties like most of us, that show a gentle side and compassion, and characters that in general aren't all out killing machines?

Surely, most gamers are not all killing machines themselves. Surely, most gamers carry at least a spec of empathy and emotion and are more than a reflection of their one dimensional space marines?

Are you guilty of this, of applauding the cringe worthy cuss-offs and murderous looking main characters while badmouthing everything that isn't up to some sort of universal "bad ass enough" standard? Why?

"Bigger, better and more bad-ass" pretty much sums up the industry's current infantile complex of game design.

Well if you actually knew the story line than you would actually know why they have those suits.

 



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drboot on 17 February 2009
TruckOSaurus said:
@drboot: So you'd pass up on Mario Galaxy or Metroid Prime just because the story isn't that deep?

 

I have passed on Metroid Prime yes, I got Mario galaxy as a gift so I didn't have to pay for it. I enjoyed the game a lot, I thought it was the best Mario game since the SNES era, but  I wouldn't have bought it myself until I would have been able to pick it up for under 20. This generation, with HD graphics and cinematic storytelling being a reality now, I expect more from my games than just good gameplay to justify the price. Good story, writing and voice acting is something I place high priority on if I am going to pay more than 20 bucks for a title.



foont on 17 February 2009

@ Louie

You said it.

Maybe part of the problem is that the industry has to "play it safe" because games cost so much to make. So everyone ends up copying each other because they hope/know gamers will buy it.


It's too bad because this kind of narrow thinking stifles innovation.

I feel like we're really only scratching the surface of what's possible with games as interactive entertainment.

I mean think about it: we're finally reaching a point where graphics can convincingly portray other worlds and experiences. We're less limited by technology than ever. Literally ANYTHING is possible if a creative developer can think of it. There are genres and types of games yet to be made that we can't even imagine yet.

Portal is an amazing example. Such a simple concept that goes beyond the traditional conventions of a FPS.

There will always be "Bad-ass" games and characters, just like in the movie industry. Sometimes I like these games. There's nothing wrong with them. Gears of War is fun with a buddy.

But that doesn't mean I want every game to be bad ass. I want more weird avant-garde shit like Killer 7 and that short indie game, Passage.



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drboot on 17 February 2009
foont said:
@ Louie

You said it.

Maybe part of the problem is that the industry has to "play it safe" because games cost so much to make. So everyone ends up copying each other because they hope/know gamers will buy it.


It's too bad because this kind of narrow thinking stifles innovation.

I feel like we're really only scratching the surface of what's possible with games as interactive entertainment.

I mean think about it: we're finally reaching a point where graphics can convincingly portray other worlds and experiences. We're less limited by technology than ever. Literally ANYTHING is possible if a creative developer can think of it. There are genres and types of games yet to be made that we can't even imagine yet.

Portal is an amazing example. Such a simple concept that goes beyond the traditional conventions of a FPS.

There will always be "Bad-ass" games and characters, just like in the movie industry. Sometimes I like these games. There's nothing wrong with them. Gears of War is fun with a buddy.

But that doesn't mean I want every game to be bad ass. I want more weird avant-garde shit like Killer 7 and that short indie game, Passage.

I don't buy the whole "games are too expensive and thus risky" arguement. The VG industry is now larger than the film and music industry, yet every single year many, many movies are released with budgets over 100, even 200 million dollars. 50+ milllion dollar budgets are the norm. When the average HD gme is only 20 or so million to make and the most expensive game in history is GTA4 with only a 100 million budget it screams frugal to me.

 



rocketpig on 17 February 2009
drboot said:
foont said:
@ Louie

You said it.

Maybe part of the problem is that the industry has to "play it safe" because games cost so much to make. So everyone ends up copying each other because they hope/know gamers will buy it.


It's too bad because this kind of narrow thinking stifles innovation.

I feel like we're really only scratching the surface of what's possible with games as interactive entertainment.

I mean think about it: we're finally reaching a point where graphics can convincingly portray other worlds and experiences. We're less limited by technology than ever. Literally ANYTHING is possible if a creative developer can think of it. There are genres and types of games yet to be made that we can't even imagine yet.

Portal is an amazing example. Such a simple concept that goes beyond the traditional conventions of a FPS.

There will always be "Bad-ass" games and characters, just like in the movie industry. Sometimes I like these games. There's nothing wrong with them. Gears of War is fun with a buddy.

But that doesn't mean I want every game to be bad ass. I want more weird avant-garde shit like Killer 7 and that short indie game, Passage.

I don't buy the whole "games are too expensive and thus risky" arguement. The VG industry is now larger than the film and music industry, yet every single year many, many movies are released with budgets over 100, even 200 million dollars. 50+ milllion dollar budgets are the norm. When the average HD gme is only 20 or so million to make and the most expensive game in history is GTA4 with only a 100 million budget it screams frugal to me.

The big difference, of course, being that movies make a boatload from back-end DVD sales, property licenses, product placement, etc.

 




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TruckOSaurus on 17 February 2009
drboot said:
TruckOSaurus said:
@drboot: So you'd pass up on Mario Galaxy or Metroid Prime just because the story isn't that deep?

 

I have passed on Metroid Prime yes, I got Mario galaxy as a gift so I didn't have to pay for it. I enjoyed the game a lot, I thought it was the best Mario game since the SNES era, but  I wouldn't have bought it myself until I would have been able to pick it up for under 20. This generation, with HD graphics and cinematic storytelling being a reality now, I expect more from my games than just good gameplay to justify the price. Good story, writing and voice acting is something I place high priority on if I am going to pay more than 20 bucks for a title.

Different priorities I guess because my main focus when buying a game is how much fun I'll have while playing it. That factor alone justifies the purchase of a $50 game for me. That doesn't mean that I don't like deep involved stories but I certainly don't want one when I'm playing a platformer.



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Onyxmeth on 17 February 2009

Sorry for ruining the argument guys. drboot needed to get back to telling us how The Dark Knight got it's influence from Metal Gear Solid 4.

It's always Metal Gear that pushes those buttons and finds you out sir.



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SleepWaking on 17 February 2009

I agree to some extend, I think games need more characters like Spike Spiegel, a character with real depth but he still is amazingly cool at the same time.