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Forums - Gaming - I'm so SICK of "bad ass" characters, dialogue, storylines and art design.

Phrancheyez on 17 February 2009
drboot said:
Phrancheyez said:
this post fails hard. Complaining about Killzone 2's enemies having red eyed gas masks? Get out of here.

 

Let me geuss, you have a legitimate explanation as to why these characters have to wear gas masks with glowing eyes that leaves no plot holes? Look, almost everyone openly admits that the designs of the Helghast are purely for "aesthetic" reasons (or to be more specific, to be more bad ass). The question is not whether they look good or not, the question is, why is the video game industry in a position where it is necessary to make everything more "bad ass"?

 

@MrBubble

People read books and watch movies about so called "bitch" characters all the time, people just like you and me who have their own daily problems, emotional issues, financial worries, social problems, etc. The point is, the portrayal of such characters is taboo in the video game industry as opposed to other storytelling mediums. Why can there not be an acceptence of a greater variety of characters, including the bad ass ones but also the more "human" ones in video games?

 

Actually, yes there IS a legitimate explanation.  Have you read the back story?  Do you have any clue as to what the story of Killzone 2 is about?  They wear these masks because the planet they live on has a harsh environment, and if they don't, they'll die.  Your complaining about their red eyes is just outlandish.  Have a read:

*edit*http://www.killzone.com/kz/storyline.psml

People don't read books or watch movies about 'so called "bitch" characters all the time'.  They read books, watch movies, and play video games about characters that they envy.  They interact with these types of media to experience people that they wish they could be like and stories that they wish they could experience.

I get what you're saying in that characters' personalities are lacking and that a lot of time they show no emotion, but complaining about how they look is stupid.  Personally, I don't need to sit here and listen to a character I'm trying to play complain about his bank account being low or his inability to get a girlfriend.  If I want to hear complaining, I'll call my ex girlfriend.  I play video games to be a punch-you-in-the-mouth, I-don't-give-a-damn-if-I-have-money-or-not, bitch-get-off-me-I'll-let-you-know-when-I-want-to-hit-it badass.  Not a whiney little bitch.



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johntonsoup on 17 February 2009

I too get tired of the emphasis on "cool" characters rather than making interesting, varied characters.

However, some of the responses to your point are right on. Video games are heavily shaped by identification with the main character. Halo and Half-life are prime examples of one way to solve the issue: by having the main character alone most of the time and silent always. That way, the player of the game assumes that the character IS them. They do not have to listen to the terrible quality voice acting that goes into some games and think "Why am I such a whiny loser? Just shut up and keep moving!"

I don't think there's an easy solution to this: players want to identify with the main character. They want to see their own personality (or their internal opinion of their personality) reflected in the character. Mostly, they want positive qualities to shine through: bravery, coolness, loyalty, strength, intelligence, and the list goes on. Any undesireable qualities (fear, stupidity, weakness, etc.)  immediately create a break between player and avatar, which damages immersion.

Since a large percentage of the action video game audience skews male and young, the characters are often meant to appeal to people going through a difficult period. Teenagers mostly want to feel more secure, more cool, more justified, and have little interest in a character who experiences complex moral dilemmas.

With a more open ended game, choices can be left to the user, but these games typically do not have strong and interesting plots. There are exceptions to this, of course, but they are rare.

With linear gameplay, any decision that the avatar chooses causes a potential break from immersion. I.e., a coup has just started in the kingdom I am a knight in, do I value my loyalty more or do I see this as an opportunity to gain more power quickly by supporting the revolution? Well, in a linear story, the writers have to pick one ahead of time, and this might just annoy some or all of the audience.

If I'm a game designer, I'm going to make every decision in a linear story with the intention of it making sense to the majority of my audience, even if that forces things like moral ambiguity or nuanced character development under the surface.



Akvod on 17 February 2009
drboot said:
Phrancheyez said:
this post fails hard. Complaining about Killzone 2's enemies having red eyed gas masks? Get out of here.

Let me geuss, you have a legitimate explanation as to why these characters have to wear gas masks with glowing eyes that leaves no plot holes? Look, almost everyone openly admits that the designs of the Helghast are purely for "aesthetic" reasons (or to be more specific, to be more bad ass). The question is not whether they look good or not, the question is, why is the video game industry in a position where it is necessary to make everything more "bad ass"?

 

@MrBubble

People read books and watch movies about so called "bitch" characters all the time, people just like you and me who have their own daily problems, emotional issues, financial worries, social problems, etc. The point is, the portrayal of such characters is taboo in the video game industry as opposed to other storytelling mediums. Why can there not be an acceptence of a greater variety of characters, including the bad ass ones but also the more "human" ones in video games?

The Helghast mask all refers back to the German Nazis.

As easy as it is to dehumanize the German Nazis, and the usage of the word "inhumanity" for evil people and actions, the fact is that the Nazis and Hitler were indeed human. I think that movies such as "Downfall" and "Saving Private Ryan" did a good job telling this message, and I'm hoping that Killzone 2 will as well. The mask and, especially the helmet are an obvious reference to the German Nazi designs. Even if you haven't read the back story, it symbolizes their de-humanity and makes them even more foreign and alien to us when we shoot them without remorse (In the back story, the Helghast actually declare themselves as not being human but superior beings, just as the German Nazis have done with their Aryan race theory). 

I can already imagine a scene where we see a dying Helghast, without his mask on , and realize that we are taking the lives of humans and not aliens. If anyone played Valkryia, I could see Rico being KZ2's Rosie =P

Unfortunately the reviews say that the story isn't that good we might not see that, and end up with the Helghast being depicted as simply an evil mindless, bad ass alien.

=====================

I think that the OP has some valid points, but his biggest mistake is his obsession with the "bad ass" characters. Kratos is a bad ass character, yet he is one that has a great ammount of inner conflict, flaws, and emotion (lots of anger =P).

There are countless cliche JRPG's that have emo and whiney characters that have absolutely no depth.

I think you shouldn't come down on bad ass characters, and say that we need more whiney emo characters. What we simply need are likeable, or at least relatable characters that have depth.



g-value on 17 February 2009
drboot said:

This is something I do not understand but has been poisoining our industry for years and is becoming ever more prevalent.

Everywhere I look gamers are drooling over how bad ass certain characters, games and even boxarts are.  Othertimes I see them complain about how a character isn't bad ass and that the game or character sucks because of it (Raiden to name the most infamous case)

Because of this companies are churning out cliche's and otherwise shit, one dimensional characters and storylines that have absolutely no depth. The dialogue in Gears of War, GoW2, Resistence, Killzone, Haze, hell, pretty much any big budget FPS or action game out there is becoming increasingly cringe worthy due to badly delivered, testosterone fueled lines consisting of 90% swear words. But gamers demand this, they reward it with mountains of praise on how "bad ass" certain, otherwise shallow elements of a game are.

This in return results in even more games delivering shallow storytelling, thinner and more cringe worthy scripts and one dimensional characters that are becoming more and more difficult to tell apart (see, big, bad space marines for the 21st century video game cliche).

Killzone 2 went even a step further, by not only including the mandatory, cringe worthy testosterone fueled dialogue but also throwing on huge, ridiculous gas masks with red glowing goggles onto enemy units for no apparent reason. Sure,  there was some half assed explanation given in  the backstory of their website, but it left so many plotholes that it's obvious that the masks were included with no other intention but to up the "bad ass" cred of the game.

It is literally taboo in western games for characters to show any emotion or weakness. It becomes instant "emo", hate material and offenders such as Raiden, JRPG characters and others become crucified in the "not bad ass enough hall of shame". Why do gamers place such an emphases on shallow, most often stupid and emotionless but "bad ass" characters? And more importantly, why do gamers virtually kill characters that conform to a more human standard -that have a sense of empathy, deal with emotional difficulties like most of us, that show a gentle side and compassion, and characters that in general aren't all out killing machines?

Surely, most gamers are not all killing machines themselves. Surely, most gamers carry at least a spec of empathy and emotion and are more than a reflection of their one dimensional space marines?

Are you guilty of this, of applauding the cringe worthy cuss-offs and murderous looking main characters while badmouthing everything that isn't up to some sort of universal "bad ass enough" standard? Why?

"Bigger, better and more bad-ass" pretty much sums up the industry's current infantile complex of game design.

drboot i agree with you for the most part but I must say it is alright for a character to be badass but for a good reason.If a character is bad ass just because he has a big ass gun and looks awesome but has no good reason for kill everyone in site then I would agree with you.But if a character has a good reason for doing some of the badass things he does and If it is a more emotionally charged reason then I think its alright.

 



Solid_Raiden on 17 February 2009

Akvod wins this thread.




PS3 Trophies

 

 

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SlorgNet on 17 February 2009
drboot said:

Because of this companies are churning out cliche's and otherwise shit, one dimensional characters and storylines that have absolutely no depth. The dialogue in Gears of War, GoW2, Resistence, Killzone, Haze, hell, pretty much any big budget FPS or action game out there is becoming increasingly cringe worthy due to badly delivered, testosterone fueled lines consisting of 90% swear words.

This in return results in even more games delivering shallow storytelling, thinner and more cringe worthy scripts and one dimensional characters that are becoming more and more difficult to tell apart (see, big, bad space marines for the 21st century video game cliche).

 

Surely, most gamers are not all killing machines themselves. Surely, most gamers carry at least a spec of empathy and emotion and are more than a reflection of their one dimensional space marines?

Actually, Resistance 2 is an interesting exception to the rule -- excellent voice-acting and dialogue, smart storyline, and a complete inversion of the Evil Aliens cliche, thanks to some savvy anti-imperial writing. Even Haze tried to shake up some of the cliches of the genre, though it had other, game-play-related issues which dragged it down. It's true, though, that most FPS games have wafer-thing characters and a bad habit of glorifying the obscenely criminal wars of the former US Empire (born 1898, RIP 2008).



drboot on 17 February 2009
Phrancheyez said:
drboot said:
Phrancheyez said:
this post fails hard. Complaining about Killzone 2's enemies having red eyed gas masks? Get out of here.

 

Let me geuss, you have a legitimate explanation as to why these characters have to wear gas masks with glowing eyes that leaves no plot holes? Look, almost everyone openly admits that the designs of the Helghast are purely for "aesthetic" reasons (or to be more specific, to be more bad ass). The question is not whether they look good or not, the question is, why is the video game industry in a position where it is necessary to make everything more "bad ass"?

 

@MrBubble

People read books and watch movies about so called "bitch" characters all the time, people just like you and me who have their own daily problems, emotional issues, financial worries, social problems, etc. The point is, the portrayal of such characters is taboo in the video game industry as opposed to other storytelling mediums. Why can there not be an acceptence of a greater variety of characters, including the bad ass ones but also the more "human" ones in video games?

 

Actually, yes there IS a legitimate explanation.  Have you read the back story?  Do you have any clue as to what the story of Killzone 2 is about?  They wear these masks because the planet they live on has a harsh environment, and if they don't, they'll die.  Your complaining about their red eyes is just outlandish.  Have a read:

*edit*http://www.killzone.com/kz/storyline.psml

People don't read books or watch movies about 'so called "bitch" characters all the time'.  They read books, watch movies, and play video games about characters that they envy.  They interact with these types of media to experience people that they wish they could be like and stories that they wish they could experience.

I get what you're saying in that characters' personalities are lacking and that a lot of time they show no emotion, but complaining about how they look is stupid.  Personally, I don't need to sit here and listen to a character I'm trying to play complain about his bank account being low or his inability to get a girlfriend.  If I want to hear complaining, I'll call my ex girlfriend.  I play video games to be a punch-you-in-the-mouth, I-don't-give-a-damn-if-I-have-money-or-not, bitch-get-off-me-I'll-let-you-know-when-I-want-to-hit-it badass.  Not a whiney little bitch.

 

Which of course doesn't explain why your unit isn't equipped with proper protection for the harsh environment. Can you imagine the political outrage it would cause if the US military was deployed without body armour, or in this case sent into space on to a foreign and uncharted planet without protective gear? The political fallout would be huge and you bet that the US military would be sending protetive face masks by the millions to calm the social outrage. No law in a futuristic democratically managed society would allow deployment outside of earths atmosphere without protective shielding, heck, look at what people are wearing just to get to the International Space Station.



drboot on 17 February 2009
Akvod said:
drboot said:
Phrancheyez said:
this post fails hard. Complaining about Killzone 2's enemies having red eyed gas masks? Get out of here.

Let me geuss, you have a legitimate explanation as to why these characters have to wear gas masks with glowing eyes that leaves no plot holes? Look, almost everyone openly admits that the designs of the Helghast are purely for "aesthetic" reasons (or to be more specific, to be more bad ass). The question is not whether they look good or not, the question is, why is the video game industry in a position where it is necessary to make everything more "bad ass"?

 

@MrBubble

People read books and watch movies about so called "bitch" characters all the time, people just like you and me who have their own daily problems, emotional issues, financial worries, social problems, etc. The point is, the portrayal of such characters is taboo in the video game industry as opposed to other storytelling mediums. Why can there not be an acceptence of a greater variety of characters, including the bad ass ones but also the more "human" ones in video games?

The Helghast mask all refers back to the German Nazis.

As easy as it is to dehumanize the German Nazis, and the usage of the word "inhumanity" for evil people and actions, the fact is that the Nazis and Hitler were indeed human. I think that movies such as "Downfall" and "Saving Private Ryan" did a good job telling this message, and I'm hoping that Killzone 2 will as well. The mask and, especially the helmet are an obvious reference to the German Nazi designs. Even if you haven't read the back story, it symbolizes their de-humanity and makes them even more foreign and alien to us when we shoot them without remorse (In the back story, the Helghast actually declare themselves as not being human but superior beings, just as the German Nazis have done with their Aryan race theory). 

I can already imagine a scene where we see a dying Helghast, without his mask on , and realize that we are taking the lives of humans and not aliens. If anyone played Valkryia, I could see Rico being KZ2's Rosie =P

Unfortunately the reviews say that the story isn't that good we might not see that, and end up with the Helghast being depicted as simply an evil mindless, bad ass alien.

=====================

I think that the OP has some valid points, but his biggest mistake is his obsession with the "bad ass" characters. Kratos is a bad ass character, yet he is one that has a great ammount of inner conflict, flaws, and emotion (lots of anger =P).

There are countless cliche JRPG's that have emo and whiney characters that have absolutely no depth.

I think you shouldn't come down on bad ass characters, and say that we need more whiney emo characters. What we simply need are likeable, or at least relatable characters that have depth.

 

The playthrough of the game has been posted online days ago, I have watched through it and let's just say the reviewers you quoted were right about the storyline lacking. The depth you are hoping for is not present in the slightest, unfortunately.

You're right, we need more "human" characters. However, many gamers I see often throw around the term bad ass at everything that resembles a paper thin, remorseless killing machine, even developers (cliff comes to mind) are capitalizing on this obsession and the apparent hate for complex, in depth characters such as Raiden do show a general bias for brainless killing machines.



Phrancheyez on 17 February 2009

@drboot

Again, IF YOU READ THE BACK STORY, the people won't die immediately. If they don't wear the masks, they'll die by the age of 40.

Sending military in for a year isn't going to kill them...it may knock a couple years off their life, however, and yes you're probably right that there would be some sort of outcry and outrage. I'm not disagreeing with that..but none of this justifies your complaints about the game, simply being the design of the Helghast.



drboot on 17 February 2009
g-value said:

drboot i agree with you for the most part but I must say it is alright for a character to be badass but for a good reason.If a character is bad ass just because he has a big ass gun and looks awesome but has no good reason for kill everyone in site then I would agree with you.But if a character has a good reason for doing some of the badass things he does and If it is a more emotionally charged reason then I think its alright.

 

 

I must clarify, I don't have anything against "bad ass" characters with depth. I think Kratos is an excellent character, Solid Snake is as well. Bad ass characters that are like that just for marketing purposes with no real depth is what I hate.