alright fuck it you win, I don't know enough about PC games for this argument and can tell when I've been beat.

There is very little true innovation in the games industry. To move a genre forward, you have to do something that is recognized -- the fact is that unknown games move the industry ahead without being noticed by the masses... and while its a shame, future games often don't look back to the unknowns for reference, or acknowledge them.

Take Rogue/Moria/Nethack (Diablo), Netrek (Battlefield series, Allegiance*, lots of modern shooters' "control point" gameplay modes), Elite (any space trade or combat game, and even games like Pirates), Dune 2 (predecessor to basically all modern RTS games), or Empire (Civilization) for example. I bet most of the readers here don't even know of, let alone remember, many of the first references... but the parenthesized ones are legendary and hailed as supremely innovative.

As a side note, notice that a select few companies, like Blizzard, creators of Diablo, WoW, Warcraft, and Starcraft, and Sid Meier, creator of Civilization, Pirates, etc. derive most of their fame from games that are clear derivatives of their mostly unknown (but extremely additive, for gameplay reasons) ancestors. They perfected those games for the masses to enjoy.  They became recognized as "innovators" -- but are they, really?  I say they are, but not by the typical defination.

They are innovators, for their wisdom in their effective "sales pitch". LBP is nothing more than a well-mastered collection of a great many ideas. And yes, it too qualifies as innovation, by presentation and platform alone. So do games like Halo, GoldenEye 007, BioShock**... the list goes on and on. They are still innovative in their approach, or placement, even if not in their initial gameplay concepts.

(* yes, I know Allegiance was not very widely known)

(** yes, I know BioShock is basically an evolution of System Shock 2, which is from System Shock, which is from Ultima Underworld, etc., and that they were all developed by many of the same people)

Dune 2 was a blast

just hated havin to click each unit to give orders individually, still tho, played it forever.