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Forums - General - Hamas legalizes Crucifixion

mrstickball on 30 December 2008
Avinash_Tyagi said:
@Stick: The prevailing theory is that the religion was the result of an amalgamation of beliefs, Horus, Mithras, Prometheus, etc.

@Rocket: I don't know about that, the writings that are used to support the historicity of Jeuss, like the gospels, the epistles, the acts, and others were all second hand accounts written decades later. In addition as you state the record keeping was poor so what evidence do we have to support the existence of the man referenced as Jesus Christ

Avinash, correct me if I'm wrong, but 'second hand account' means that the people weren't there, correct?

The following books of the Bible were written by either Apostles or those that directly knew and lived with Jesus:

  • Gospel of Matthew (Written by the Apostle Matthew)
  • Gospel of John (Written by the Apostle John - the only Apostle to not die due to martyrdom)
  • Epistle of James (Written by James the Just - Jesus' brother)
  • Epistle of Peter 1-2 (Written by the Apostle Peter)
  • Epistle of John 1-3 (Written by the Apostle John - Same as the Gospel of John)
  • Epistle of Jude (Written by Jude - the brother of Jesus)
  • Book of Revelations (Written by the Apostle John)

That winds up being just under 50% of the New Testament being written by those directly involved in Jesus' earthly ministry and life.

@ Rocketpig - Mormonism is a great example, and I agree that some crazy things (such as Scientology) can come into belief, despite being established by loons. It should be noted, however, that Christianity faced far worse persecutions than both and grew at a much larger rate.

 



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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Avinash_Tyagi on 30 December 2008
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
(And a novelist writing flaws into a "heroic main character" isn't the same as a priest writing flaws into his savior.)
Depends on who the heoric character is.
Clearly you missed my point, which was that your comparison of someone making up bad things about one's fictional character and someone making up bad things about the savior of one's religion is ludicrous.  Harry Potter may be the savior of the wizarding world, but I seriously doubt J.K. Rowling worships him (despite the billions of dollars he's made her).
You misunderstood my point, just because one views him as a savior doesn't mean he's not ficitional and doesn't mean that saying bad things about him is anything special
Excuse me but WTF are you thinking?  Did Rock_on_2008 go around spreading negative misinformation about the PS3?
Hunh?  I'm afraid I don't follow, where did the PS3 come in?

Why do you think it's likely that an early Christian would make up stories about a savior who was executed in a very humiliating way?  Why not a more prestigious form of death?  Why would these people who you speculate fabricated the existence of Jesus Christ put in bad things about their savior?

 

 Simply this, it was the mode of execution used back then.  You wouldn't say that people in America are being killed by a Guiilotine in this day and age, and you wouldn't say that people in ancient times got the electric chair, any legends that grew would grow based on some shreds of reality, hence why Jesus would get crucified and not electrocuted.



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Avinash_Tyagi on 30 December 2008
mrstickball said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
@Stick: The prevailing theory is that the religion was the result of an amalgamation of beliefs, Horus, Mithras, Prometheus, etc.

@Rocket: I don't know about that, the writings that are used to support the historicity of Jeuss, like the gospels, the epistles, the acts, and others were all second hand accounts written decades later. In addition as you state the record keeping was poor so what evidence do we have to support the existence of the man referenced as Jesus Christ

Avinash, correct me if I'm wrong, but 'second hand account' means that the people weren't there, correct?

The following books of the Bible were written by either Apostles or those that directly knew and lived with Jesus:

  • Gospel of Matthew (Written by the Apostle Matthew)
  • Gospel of John (Written by the Apostle John - the only Apostle to not die due to martyrdom)
  • Epistle of James (Written by James the Just - Jesus' brother)
  • Epistle of Peter 1-2 (Written by the Apostle Peter)
  • Epistle of John 1-3 (Written by the Apostle John - Same as the Gospel of John)
  • Epistle of Jude (Written by Jude - the brother of Jesus)
  • Book of Revelations (Written by the Apostle John)

That winds up being just under 50% of the New Testament being written by those directly involved in Jesus' earthly ministry and life.

@ Rocketpig - Mormonism is a great example, and I agree that some crazy things (such as Scientology) can come into belief, despite being established by loons. It should be noted, however, that Christianity faced far worse persecutions than both and grew at a much larger rate.

 

 

most scholars do not attest the Gospel of Matthew to matthew, and the gospel of John is not believed to be a reliable source, the epistle of james was written in the first or second centuries long after Christ's supposed death, revelations was written by a different john, etc. etc.



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

rocketpig on 31 December 2008
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
(And a novelist writing flaws into a "heroic main character" isn't the same as a priest writing flaws into his savior.)
Depends on who the heoric character is.
Clearly you missed my point, which was that your comparison of someone making up bad things about one's fictional character and someone making up bad things about the savior of one's religion is ludicrous.  Harry Potter may be the savior of the wizarding world, but I seriously doubt J.K. Rowling worships him (despite the billions of dollars he's made her).
You misunderstood my point, just because one views him as a savior doesn't mean he's not ficitional and doesn't mean that saying bad things about him is anything special
Excuse me but WTF are you thinking?  Did Rock_on_2008 go around spreading negative misinformation about the PS3?
Hunh?  I'm afraid I don't follow, where did the PS3 come in?

Why do you think it's likely that an early Christian would make up stories about a savior who was executed in a very humiliating way?  Why not a more prestigious form of death?  Why would these people who you speculate fabricated the existence of Jesus Christ put in bad things about their savior?

Oh boy, that's an easy one and is one of the core differences to human life. It's basic psychology.

Common man wants someone greater than themselves. A self-sacrifice is fundamental to our very nature when we look at stories told since the beginning of man. Something for the "greater good". If it's humiliating, just the better. We're a pack animal. Pack animals look up to the "alpha" of the pack. Since we're also intelligent creatures, there is reasoning given beyond fighting and survival. So, unlike say a wolf pack, we idolize the noble idea of sacrificing yourself for the greater good of the pack.

Instead of fighting weather or a predator like an animal, our "enemy" was the establishment. In this case, it was the Roman Empire. Stories of Jesus sacrificing himself for the good of the pack is no different than any Jack London or Greek Mythology story you might read. It's a common thread ever since humanity started drawing on walls.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

im_sneaky on 31 December 2008

I think most people are pretty sure he existed. Just not as magical.



 

 

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Final-Fan on 31 December 2008
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
(And a novelist writing flaws into a "heroic main character" isn't the same as a priest writing flaws into his savior.)
Depends on who the heoric character is.
Clearly you missed my point, which was that your comparison of someone making up bad things about one's fictional character and someone making up bad things about the savior of one's religion is ludicrous.  Harry Potter may be the savior of the wizarding world, but I seriously doubt J.K. Rowling worships him (despite the billions of dollars he's made her).
You misunderstood my point, just because one views him as a savior doesn't mean he's not ficitional and doesn't mean that saying bad things about him is anything special
Excuse me but WTF are you thinking?  Did Rock_on_2008 go around spreading negative misinformation about the PS3?
Hunh?  I'm afraid I don't follow, where did the PS3 come in?
Why do you think it's likely that an early Christian would make up stories about a savior who was executed in a very humiliating way?  Why not a more prestigious form of death?  Why would these people who you speculate fabricated the existence of Jesus Christ put in bad things about their savior?
Simply this, it was the mode of execution used back then.  You wouldn't say that people in America are being killed by a Guiilotine in this day and age, and you wouldn't say that people in ancient times got the electric chair, any legends that grew would grow based on some shreds of reality, hence why Jesus would get crucified and not electrocuted.

Crucifixion was FAR from the only mode of execution used by the Romans.  They actually had quite a few ways to put people to death.  Aside from crucifixion, being burned alive or being exposed to savage beasts were two "low class" methods.  At the upper end of the scale can be found decapitation, poison, and strangulation.  I bet there were others, too. source



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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rocketpig on 31 December 2008

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't crucification reserved for "special" recipients? I seem to remember reading that a certain level had to be given for the effort of being crucified but maybe I'm wrong.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

Avinash_Tyagi on 31 December 2008
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
(And a novelist writing flaws into a "heroic main character" isn't the same as a priest writing flaws into his savior.)
Depends on who the heoric character is.
Clearly you missed my point, which was that your comparison of someone making up bad things about one's fictional character and someone making up bad things about the savior of one's religion is ludicrous.  Harry Potter may be the savior of the wizarding world, but I seriously doubt J.K. Rowling worships him (despite the billions of dollars he's made her).
You misunderstood my point, just because one views him as a savior doesn't mean he's not ficitional and doesn't mean that saying bad things about him is anything special
Excuse me but WTF are you thinking?  Did Rock_on_2008 go around spreading negative misinformation about the PS3?
Hunh?  I'm afraid I don't follow, where did the PS3 come in?
Why do you think it's likely that an early Christian would make up stories about a savior who was executed in a very humiliating way?  Why not a more prestigious form of death?  Why would these people who you speculate fabricated the existence of Jesus Christ put in bad things about their savior?
Simply this, it was the mode of execution used back then.  You wouldn't say that people in America are being killed by a Guiilotine in this day and age, and you wouldn't say that people in ancient times got the electric chair, any legends that grew would grow based on some shreds of reality, hence why Jesus would get crucified and not electrocuted.

Crucifixion was FAR from the only mode of execution used by the Romans.  They actually had quite a few ways to put people to death.  Aside from crucifixion, being burned alive or being exposed to savage beasts were two "low class" methods.  At the upper end of the scale can be found decapitation, poison, and strangulation.  I bet there were others, too. source

 

 Possibly, but you asked why Crucifixition and not something more presigious, well none of those methods seem presitigious, but crucifixtion sounds the best when you're talking about someone dying for the sins of others



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Final-Fan on 31 December 2008
rocketpig said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
(And a novelist writing flaws into a "heroic main character" isn't the same as a priest writing flaws into his savior.)
Depends on who the heoric character is.
Clearly you missed my point, which was that your comparison of someone making up bad things about one's fictional character and someone making up bad things about the savior of one's religion is ludicrous.  Harry Potter may be the savior of the wizarding world, but I seriously doubt J.K. Rowling worships him (despite the billions of dollars he's made her).
You misunderstood my point, just because one views him as a savior doesn't mean he's not ficitional and doesn't mean that saying bad things about him is anything special
Excuse me but WTF are you thinking?  Did Rock_on_2008 go around spreading negative misinformation about the PS3?
Hunh?  I'm afraid I don't follow, where did the PS3 come in?
Why do you think it's likely that an early Christian would make up stories about a savior who was executed in a very humiliating way?  Why not a more prestigious form of death?  Why would these people who you speculate fabricated the existence of Jesus Christ put in bad things about their savior?
Oh boy, that's an easy one and is one of the core differences to human life. It's basic psychology.

Common man wants someone greater than themselves. A self-sacrifice is fundamental to our very nature when we look at stories told since the beginning of man. Something for the "greater good". If it's humiliating, just the better. We're a pack animal. Pack animals look up to the "alpha" of the pack. Since we're also intelligent creatures, there is reasoning given beyond fighting and survival. So, unlike say a wolf pack, we idolize the noble idea of sacrificing yourself for the greater good of the pack.

Instead of fighting weather or a predator like an animal, our "enemy" was the establishment. In this case, it was the Roman Empire. Stories of Jesus sacrificing himself for the good of the pack is no different than any Jack London or Greek Mythology story you might read. It's a common thread ever since humanity started drawing on walls.

Yeah, I can see that angle.  You haven't explained why it would be good to be a "bad" death like crucifixion, but that can be explained by reasoning that the more he suffered, the more awesome he was to take it for us.  Doesn't make a great deal of logical sense but plenty of mythical sense.

getting back to A_T:  what exactly is your alternate theory here?  How did his existence get manufactured in such a brief time?  Why didn't anyone say anything like "wait a second that never happened, there was no such Jesus"? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan on 31 December 2008
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Crucifixion was FAR from the only mode of execution used by the Romans.  They actually had quite a few ways to put people to death.  Aside from crucifixion, being burned alive or being exposed to savage beasts were two "low class" methods.  At the upper end of the scale can be found decapitation, poison, and strangulation.  I bet there were others, too. source
Possibly, but you asked why Crucifixition and not something more presigious, well none of those methods seem presitigious, but crucifixtion sounds the best when you're talking about someone dying for the sins of others

Why do you say that?  Are you sure it doesn't seem that way simply because of all the stuff Christians have built up around it?  That would probably have happened with whatever way he was killed. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!