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Final-Fan on 31 December 2008
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
I'm going to sleep now. Avinash_Tyagi, I leave you with this reiteration of an earlier point that may have gotten lost in the shuffle:

What exactly is your alternate theory here? How did his existence get manufactured in such a brief time? Why didn't anyone say anything like "wait a second that never happened, there was no such Jesus"?

To say simply that we aren't OMG 100% ABSOLUTELY sure of the "Jesus was real" view isn't good enough. There has to be a "Jesus wasn't real" view that at least makes some sense. What is it?
I already answered that question, one prevailing theory is that Jesus is actually an Amalgamation story, drawn from Mithras, Horus, Prometheus and other saviors
First off, it's not a "prevailing" anything.  Your skepticism is very much a fringe belief even among secular historians. 

Now, fine, the amalgamation theory.  But (1) how did the amalgamation form so quickly?  I mean, wouldn't it be awfully suspicious to fabricate the existence of someone who was supposedly around within living memory?  Why did no one deny this claim?  (2) How could such a blatant falsehood get into the writings of some of the best Roman historians of the day only a few decades later? 

Christianity was viciously opposed by Jews as heresy.  There were many attacks on an intellectual level as well as physical.  (3) Why the hell would there be absolutely no evidence that they didn't completely miss this golden opportunity to discredit the religion? 

(4) Looking at the amalgamation itself, that's quite a list.  Mithras was from a Roman religion of apparently Persian/Zoroastrian descent; Horus is Egyptian; Prometheus, Greek.  Mithras in particular is interesting, because it didn't become popular until the 3rd and 4th centuries and isn't even known to have existed prior to Jesus' lifetime.  Very interesting that Christianity could be "drawn" from a religion that seems to be contemporary with it at best.
With the Mithraic stories, much of which became practiced in the first century through third centuries AD, around the time that many of the stories of christ were being written finalfan, remeber many stories were written decades, even the next century later, not to mention that the bible underwent revisions around that time as well, incorporating other pagan myths into it.

Also how it spread, well no telephone, no newspaper, no real record keeping, so things passed by word of mouth and since distance made fact checking harder, well rumors could become legend fast, so even the Jews or any other groups couldn't discredit them

And yet historians did exist, and they did fact check.  "No real record keeping"?  Well, I grant you that there was a lot less of it back then, but Rome actually had quite a well-developed bureaucracy IIRC.  I agree that rumor can become legend, but that doesn't explain why people who would LOVE to cast doubt on Christianity would miss out on that opening if it was even remotely suspected that Jesus had never really existed.  The most reasonable explanation is that it was known to interested parties at the time that he had in fact existed. 

As for the Mithraic stuff, that makes no sense.  Maybe you can argue that some influences may have been edited into his life story in the Bible, if the Gospels were written in the 3rd century or later, which I seriously doubt.  But that isn't the same as Jesus being created in the first place out of Mithraic mythology, which is what you asserted could be the case.



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Avinash_Tyagi on 31 December 2008

@final fan:

Distance was key, even short travels by todays's standards would have taken days or even weeks to do back then, yes there was some record keeping and some ability to fact check, the fact is that word of mouth would still have trumped it, especially at a time when most people were uneducated.

I never asserted that he was created out of Mithraic ideas, i said that the theory is that the story of Jesus was an amalgamation of the various savior stories found in Pagan lore at the time, the story of Mithras being only one of many, the Christ Story wasn't written until around or after 100 AD, so influences from other groups like the Mithran cults could have played a role in the formation of the christ story, that the Mithraic Ideas would have been a part of the amalgamation, since they existed at the same time period. Like we see that the Virgin Birth concept was something that existed quite heavily in pagan lore for example, like with Horus, Perseus (whose mom got pregnant in a shower of gold) and others.



 

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Final-Fan on 31 December 2008
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Yes I know that he is supposed to have lived that long, but to be writing the gosple at that age, is unlikely, the mind starts to go in the old age, in addition memeory is lost in that age, in addition even Scholars question based on the internal evidence of the text that it was written by John , first off the Gospel was originally cited as anoymous, it wasn't until the second century that the gospel was attributed to John, in additon there are shifts in the language, which question whether there was one person who wrote it.  Finally the fact that it was written over half a century after the death of Christ is telling, why would an Apostle wait so long to write about his "savior", especially since it was anonymous writing?

Not all people go senile or lose important memories.  I trust you'll agree that those would be extremely important memories to him.

Avinash_Tyagi said:
I'm not saying that Jesus did not exist, I do not make those statements, I however do question those who believe that he existed with certainty, because it is not certain, all I am sayin is there is no certainty that he existed and no evidence to verify his existence, only theories.

Just because you don't think the evidence is credible doesn't mean it isn't.  And some theories are better than others. 

And it seems pretty clear that your opinion is that Jesus never existed, but you also know that it would be complete insanity to claim it as fact.



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Avinash_Tyagi on 31 December 2008

Not at all, i'm approaching it from the viewpoint of a skeptic, and yet I am willing to accept evidence, but evidence has not been shown. It is Credible if it is supported. Also I am not stating that he deos not exist, you are trying to state it as fact that he did exist, when it is clear it is not fact, but rather just a theory. I have maintained a position of skepticism, but have not said that he deons not exist, only that his existence is uncertain. You are the one who has tried to argue as though you are certain and yet without proof.

Yeah the mind may have reamined intact, but unlikely in addition, you haven't addressed why he waited 60 years to write the gospel, if it was so important to him, and why the shifts in the language of the gospel indicating different writers



 

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Final-Fan on 31 December 2008
Avinash_Tyagi said:

@final fan:

Distance was key, even short travels by todays's standards would have taken days or even weeks to do back then, yes there was some record keeping and some ability to fact check, the fact is that word of mouth would still have trumped it, especially at a time when most people were uneducated.

I never asserted that he was created out of Mithraic ideas, i said that the theory is that the story of Jesus was an amalgamation of the various savior stories found in Pagan lore at the time, the story of Mithras being only one of many, the Christ Story wasn't written until around or after 100 AD, so influences from other groups like the Mithran cults could have played a role in the formation of the christ story, that the Mithraic Ideas would have been a part of the amalgamation, since they existed at the same time period. Like we see that the Virgin Birth concept was something that existed quite heavily in pagan lore for example, like with Horus, Perseus (whose mom got pregnant in a shower of gold) and others.

I didn't mean only Mithraism.  I'm just casting special doubt on that one since it wasn't even popular at the time the supposed amalgamation was forming, and doesn't predate said amalgamation by much if at all. 

And we're not talking about "most people".  We're talking about serious scholars writing histories that they wanted to go down through the ages, and some did.  They didn't get everything right, and they tended, for instance, to write their own mythology as if it was history, but they would not just put rumors down on the page as fact. 

And I reiterate that there were also scholars among the ideological enemies of Christianity, and you can bet they were digging for dirt.  They never breathed a word about Jesus being a collective figment of the imagination.



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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Avinash_Tyagi on 31 December 2008

Just because they didn't doesn't mean he wasn't, maybe they didn't know, just as you don't have any proof now of his existence, whose to say they had any proof back then that he didn't exist. And whose to say that what they did write didn't get destroyed later. In addition remeber that the writings we have of Jesus now are written decades after, so it seems that an entire time period about him is missing, good or bad.

The fact that it wasn't popular doesn't mean it didn't have an influence, and the fact that they coexisted probably helped to cause a blending of the stories.



 

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Final-Fan on 31 December 2008
Avinash_Tyagi said:

Not at all, i'm approaching it from the viewpoint of a skeptic, and yet I am willing to accept evidence, but evidence has not been shown. It is Credible if it is supported. Also I am not stating that he deos not exist, you are trying to state it as fact that he did exist, when it is clear it is not fact, but rather just a theory. I have maintained a position of skepticism, but have not said that he deons not exist, only that his existence is uncertain. You are the one who has tried to argue as though you are certain and yet without proof.

Yeah the mind may have reamined intact, but unlikely in addition, you haven't addressed why he waited 60 years to write the gospel, if it was so important to him, and why the shifts in the language of the gospel indicating different writers

Maybe he was busy with spreading the good word more personally, or he thought someone else would do the biography, or he was illiterate and didn't spare the time to sit down with a scribe until he was decrepit.  And maybe that scribe decided to do some editing, or maybe it got edited later on (but the original text did exist and obviously then Jesus is attested in it).  I'm not saying that these are facts, in fact I'm just making them up; I just wanted to point out that those reasons didn't seem compelling. 

Maybe I am wrong about your opinion, but you hold to such a fringe viewpoint, rejecting so much evidence, that it seems to go beyond mere skepticism IMO.



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan on 31 December 2008

Correction, we have no evidence whatsoever (AFAIK) suggesting that they breathed such a word.

And what blending exactly do you allege took place between Mithraism and Christianity?



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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Avinash_Tyagi on 31 December 2008

Actually your arguments support my point, if as you say the story was spread being spread orally and not written, not only does it hurt the ability to factcheck since its being spread orally, but it also supports my point that the story would shift and blend with other stories over time.

In addition if it was important as you argued earlier and about his saviour then why wouldn't he have put it to paper fast so as to prevent it being lost if he should be killed or die, the fact that he waited if it was shows that either it wasn't that important so he wouldn't remember it into his old age, or that most likely it wasn't him who wrote it but someone else, or that it was entirely made up.

What evidence? You've given nothing and you call it evidence, none of you have supported your arguments with a shread of evidence, all you've said is that these are what is written so he must exist because there are writings of it, but when I show you that none of the writings are first hand writing, in fact that they were written by people who never met him you dismiss it because it proves you wrong, and proves my point that there is no certainty of his existence. You call my argument fringe, but i've supported it, and shown that it is uncertain, you haven't shown anything that shows that it is certain.



 

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Avinash_Tyagi on 31 December 2008
Final-Fan said:
Correction, we have no evidence whatsoever (AFAIK) suggesting that they breathed such a word.

And what blending exactly do you allege took place between Mithraism and Christianity?

 

 And we have no evidence whatsoever that Christ was real until decades after his death, the story just springs up years later when these gosppels are written.  So what makes you think that the evidence against him would exist, especially if as you argue things were being spread orally at the time?

 

If you read the various stories of Mithras and Christ you see some parralells in the beliefs, Mithras was considered a mediator between heaven and earth like Christ, both were considered to have many disciples, both were considered to be teachers, etc.



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)