If you hate them so much why have you played them all?? You think you would quit after a while....

As far as the games. I've had alot of fun. excuse me....alot of quality fun.

I'll touch on it pretty quickly since I'm supposed to be going to bed:

Keep in mind during this that I tried to get into the game twice with a completely open mind.  Both times I got about 16 hours into the game and just couldn't take anymore.  The game was boring me to tears for the following reasons.

The License Grid

It was a good idea and an improvement over the sphere's from FFX in theory.  The sphere was annoying and confusing.  It was hard to see where you going.  The license grid is clean and simple and it's easy to see what you're working up to.  The problem?  Every grid is the same so you have no reason to make any character different.  Sure, they have their stats, but those barely matter.  Both times I ended up just giving characters spears and the best magic and it made the game stupid simple.  I think the only one I didn't do the same thing was Fran and that was because I gave her ranged weapons for some odd reason (I think I just wanted *something* different).  Because of that, I felt no connection to any character, they were all just HP pool

Gambit System

Another great idea that they just completely fucked up.  Instead of letting us really benefit from their deep gambit system, they start us up with things like cure ally if their HP's are less than 90%.  That's useless.

They make us buy and find these gambits which sucks because money isn't easy to come by in this game for some odd reason.  By the time I finally start getting enough gambit cards to actually make some good systems, I just don't give a shit.  I suffered too long with the worthless gambits so I just stopped caring about the system.  I was doing fine with the shitty gambits and doing things on my own and the game was still simple so there was no reason to change.

If they had just given us the full range of options from the beginning and perhaps just done something like given us 2 slots instead of 10 and then work our way up to however many, that would have been *much* better.  But because of the way they did it, they just made me hate their wonderful system.

Regenerating MP

This really made the game too easy.  It upped the pace which was cool but I didn't have to worry about budgeting magic which took some fun strategy out of the game.

Difficulty

Or lack of I guess.  Except for hunts which were just stupid hard, enemies were just stupid easy.  Even boss fights I was pretty much able to just blindly play which got me more license points.  More license points meant making my characters even stronger and then making enemies even easier.  I actually wish I could have traded license points for money.

Story

As I said, I tried twice to get into this game and both times quit because the story just didn't do anything for me.  The game starts off with one of the worst beginnings I've ever seen in a game.  It starts off introducing you to one set of characters and then kills them.  Then you start a tutorial section with another set of characters and then they die.  Then you finally start with Vaan and by that point I'm wondering if I'm going to lose him in 10 minutes too.

And then the rest of the story just isn't interesting.  It could be me just not caring about uber political stories but the story just didn't do anything to interest me.  They really did nothing to make me care what was going on in the world.  The world was just where I happened to be which was boring.

Characters

But I can't place all blame on the story, oh no, the characters are just as much to blame or even more.  no character really had a good reason to be there except maybe Pinnelo which was horribly cliche.

Vaan - Ugh, God he was almost as bad as Squall.  Actually, he was worse because Vaan wouldn't shut his damn mouth.  What a shitty character.  He was stupid, he was rude, he was annoying, and really had no reason to be part of the story.  He just happens to keep falling into these situations and then keeps going along with them for no reason at all other than he's bored I guess.  Horrible character + no motivation = I hate you.

Pinnelo - As I said, she at least has a reason to be in the game but it's cliche.  Hello love interest that is only there because you're chasing after the boy.  You're boring.

Balthasar (or whatever his name was) - Again, no reason to be there.  For some reason he decides to tag along with Vaan.  At first I guess because he wanted the jewel but then he realizes he doesn't want it and then he stays.  He's a dirty scoundrel with a heart of gold I guess.  Han Solo did a better job at being Han Solo.

Fran - Hello Chewey with boobs and not completely covered in fur.

Annoying price twit - Lets put my life on the line because I want to chase after some girl chasing after someone else!

Knight guy we thought that died - I suppose he has a reason for existing but I don't know why I'm following

Ashe - see above

All of the characters in this game did absolutely nothing to make me like them.  Vaan is just one of the worst characters of all time and he's supposed to be the one I spend the most time with!  Then there's every other character I don't give a crap about with most of them having no reason to be in the game other than they needed some stereotypes or more ways to copy Star Wars.

So there's more, but I'm tired and spent longer bitching than I meant to.  I know people keep telling my that the game suddenly gets good around the mythical 20 hour mark  but it's insane to ask me to suffer through 20 hours of shitty game before I actually get to the good.  If the game starts getting good at 20 hours in, just start the game at that 20 hour mark.  At least in the first 16 hours the game isn't doing anything to develop characters or give me story that couldn't be recapped in five minutes.

Soo we've got ourselves yet another 'FFXII - good or bad" thread. Good job. But I am outta here.

Oh and FFXII is amazing.

I agree with some thing not all one being FFX was a great game to me.

It's an expression of my lack of understanding in the desire of people wanting to discuss it.  I didn't say there was anything wrong with liking (or not liking) something for it's basic aesthetic or overt use of symbols or other artistic mechanisms, which I left out of the original post because I wanted to keep it short.  In fact I admitted liking kitsch.

You could argue that it's not kitsch but it would be pointless because the label is completely subjective.

Games as art can be two things, 1) the game-play itself or 2) telling a story through the use of gameplay, cinema, other visual arts, sound, text etc. 

I call FF kitsch because the developers use established styles in art to accomplish it's goals while lacking any real artistic creativity.  Everything from the stories, the costumes, and character design to the music are based on other peoples work. The management of the projects and the methods of implimantation are creatively produced but that does not in itself justify all the discussion, to me, of quality.  They are fun and they are art, it doesn't make it good art it just makes it a fun game to some.  This is part of the problem with the games as art argument, is the presentation of the game art or is the interactivity of the game art?

All subjective, all to be determined by social norms.

So was FF X-2 good becouse it didn't make it to this list :)

lol!

Oh just to comment on the gibberish in the OP(), I do think the series has lost a bit of it's luster because of it's overuse. There used to be a time when a spinoff or remake was rare and you were actually holding your breath for something with the name Final Fantasy on it. Nowdays, there are five times as many games outside of the main cannon than within it. Usually, in the case of something like Mario it's easy to get away with it because Mario is a character. Final Fantasy is just one world of different characters after another, so it's a question on why this one if a real FF and not another one.

To help explain, Mario is originally a platformer. All main cannon Marios are platformers and all spinoffs are representations of his world in different genres(sports, fighting, RPGs, racing, etc.). FF is almost always an RPG, spinoff or not. Why was FF Tactics a spinoff and not called Final Fantasy VIII? Is it because of the vastly warped fighting style? Tell that to FF XI and FF XII.

Why do some of the games have sequels and prequels and not others? Why are these sequels and prequels always vastly different from their originals? Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus play nothing like eachother or FF VII. Why is the FF XII sequel so different in gameplay and tone from the original? Wouldn't it be weird if the God of War prequel was some tactical army building game featuring Kratos as nothing more than an inactive general? That would be weird and in most cases bitched about. Final Fantasy seems to get the free pass in this case.

Why is FF IV ported to the GBA, then remade for the DS, and it's sequel is a mobile game exclusive to Japan?

Why is Ivalice used as the setting for FF Tactics(a spinoff), then FF XII(main canon) and yet there's no connection between the two, the worlds don't even match up to eachother and the gameplay of both is night and day? What is the point in that?

There used to be a time when a game baring the Final Fantasy name was a special occasion. It was rarely put to bad use. Nowadays, it's only special sometimes when there's a number at the end...sometimes. Final Fantasy as a name has kinda been whored out maybe a bit too much. Case in point, even the Final Fantasy spinoffs have their own spinoffs now. Final Fantasy Tactics turning into Tactics Advance in case anyone was wondering.

Well, nice to hear your opinion and at least you are willing to provide arguments for your points when questioned. However I`m going to give FFXIII a go as I enjoyed X and found XII decent enough so deal with it. :P

Final Fantasy VIII was the first RPG I LOVED and Final Fantasy X is the last RPG I LOVED. I'm sick and tired of the copy and paste formula Square and almost every other RPG publisher continue to use. They are all the same ideas with little difference to the implementation.