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Forums - General Discussion - So who do you want to run against Obama in 2010?

Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
The situations are not equivalent.  The internet deck thing is a bad activity (I presume) that others must emulate to remain competitive, whereas what we are talking about is people who spend wastefully versus people who spend wastefully AND create huge deficits in doing so.  It's another level of bad government beyond what was being done by the first group, that the first group cannot reasonably be held responsible for.

Besides which, I've shown that the Democrats actually returned to a fiscally conservative stance, that the Republicans did not emulate when they had a similar majority.
Wasteful spending is a bad activity that other polticians must emulate to stay elected or risk getting replaced by Neocons.

Why else do you suspect the Neocons got into office?

Cutting a bunch of republican programs i wouldn't call so "Fiscally conservative".

It's not like the democrats cut anything that they wanted to fund.

Just how the former republican congress cut demcoratic programs.  Though the current president also started a few wars... two real and one imaginary.  That tends to rake in the national debt.  Add in pointless government additions like the department of homeland security...

Both sides are just fighting for their "share" of the loot at this point, striking where they can at the others money.

OK, I'm afraid I don't see how you answered my point at all.  In fact it seems to me like you totally ignored it, being fixated on the allocation of funds which is another argument entirely.  (For the record the deficits were bad even without the wars; and unnecessary wars are just an example of particularly wasteful spending, so wouldn't let anyone off the hook anyway.) 

Let's do another comparison.  Let's say that the high spending is like having extra cork in baseballs.  It gives the people using it a competitive advantage (or, at least, I seem to remember something like that -- I'm no baseball expert so if I'm worng please pretend for the sake of the example).  Other people who weren't doing this feel obligated to follow suit to keep up.  (I'd take issue with the characterization of real-life events this implies, but let's run with it.) 

So Democrats corked the baseballs.  Does that mean it's somehow their fault that Republicans also went on steroids?



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I don't get what you consider steroids.

Also yes it would be the fault of the democrats for forcing out the honest players allowing cheaters to be the only ones to get it.



akuma587 said:
Kasz216 said:

Doesn't being against something mean your for something?

I mean they started off against slavery... which means they were for abolition.

Although in a way one could also blame Neo conservatives on the democrats in that Neoconservatives used to be democrats... and fairly liberal ones at that.

Neoconservatives are basically fiscal democrats and social republicans who realized that nobody likes tax increases... so they just ignore doing it and raise up the deficit.

Wikipedia covers it fairly well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism#Drift_away_from_New_Left_and_Great_Society

Its generally a pointless discussion to try and compare the Republicans to Democrats at any time before FDR or the whole Civil Rights debacle in the 60's and 70's since the parties themselves are completely different from what they were before those times.

Neocons are only liberal in the sense that they like to spend money, not in any other way.  They usually still like to rail against the inefficiency of government on the campaign trail, so they still try to pawn themselves off as anti-big-government even if that isn't true.

I just don't see how you can so easily exculpate the Republicans by saying that "the Democrats did it first."  What Neocons are copying isn't what Democrats were doing, since Democrats were willing to raise taxes.  Neocons have essentially just taken the "spend" without the "tax" out of "tax and spend liberal."  Consequently, I don't think it is a fair comparison since what Neocons are doing is worse than what the Democrats were doing fiscally.

Yeah.... this happened in the 1980s.

So no worries there.  That's when the switch happened.  During the Carter administartion.

Tax cuts and tax raises are not good or bad individually. 

Wasteful spending is always bad.



I see what Kasz is postulating and it does have some truth to it. If you want to continue to win elections, you must continually bring home the bacon, so to speak, or else you will be defeated. What irritates me most is the Republicans actually had the chance to change this. They could have irreversibly changed government as we know it; however, the Republican leadership in the mid-90s, Dole and Gingrich, was not willing to accept the challenge. The GOP subsequently became a party of pork, reckless spending, and then...interventionist wars; it is why I am still disgruntled with them.



Kasz216 said:
I don't get what you consider steroids.

Also yes it would be the fault of the democrats for forcing out the honest players allowing cheaters to be the only ones to get it.

THE FUCKING HUGE DEFICITS SPENDING!  Have you not read the post I bolded at all?  The Democrats were at fault for the baseballs all getting corked, but had NOTHING to do with the steroids.  In fact, they FOUGHT the use of steroids when they regained control!  When it reverted to split government, the Republicans kept going along with it, but as soon as they were in charge again it went back to this: 

[edit:  and for the record, what I was (mis)remembering was actually not extra cork in the baseballs but tighter winding of their contents.  For this discussion I am assuming that the introduction of the new balls was not unified.  For simplicity I'm going to keep saying cork.]



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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Assuming all this is true (which is quite an assumption), then why does the Republican Party still claim to be the party of small government? Is everyone fine with them just outright lying?



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

akuma587 said:
Assuming all this is true (which is quite an assumption), then why does the Republican Party still claim to be the party of small government? Is everyone fine with them just outright lying?


Not fine with it at all.  It is the case though.  Some members still do believe in small government.... but mostly they are just like democrats in they think Government is the best answer for problems.  They just have different definitions on what those problems are.

That's why i've yet to actually vote for a republican in an election to date.



To follow the baseball analogy.

Say you are the manager of the Red Sox. You do everything honestly... refuse dirty players etc.

Now you have the yankees as a team all corking their bats. As such they have huge advantages and are pretty much kicking your ass a lot of the time.

Perhaps the honest manager tired of the cheating and losing decides to let a few people who take steroids in to even things up.

Not a lot... just a few to make things competitive while he keeps honest players where he can. However lots of players see what the steroids do, and now the floodgate is off.

It's easy.



Is this thread about baseball of the candidate running against Obama in 2012. To all spammers: GET OFF MY THREAD!



halogamer1989 said:
Is this thread about baseball of the candidate running against Obama in 2012. To all spammers: GET OFF MY THREAD!

Hey Jason Varitek would have a better shot then the guys you mentioned.

Or Derek Jeter.