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Forums - Gaming - How much longer will analog sticks be relevent in gaming?

cringer8 said:
your mother said:

True, but then that kind of negates the inherent flexibility of a touchscreen, doesn't it?

With raised bumps, you essentially are assigning button areas to the touchscreen when the beauty of having a touchscreen is its ability to adapt to whatever use the application needs it for. If the surface of the touchscreen needs to be raised in order provide tactile feedback, then what's wrong with having buttons in the first place, since it accomplishes exactly the same?

Also, while any control mechanism can be learned and mastered, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's better.


Good point. Maybe a touch screen isn't the best solution. Perhaps face buttons aren't really an issue at all.

But what do you think about a track ball in place of the primary thumb stick?

Trackballs vs mice vs thumbsticks is more a preference issue than anything else.  Some people swear by them, some people loathe them.

I got my missus a notebook with one of those rubber eraser thingies and a tactile slider thingy (hope you know what I'm talking about) and the first comment was: "Where's the mouse? I can't use these things!"

Having said that, there are companies like this that are using trackballs (and I'm very interested in picking up a set of these controllers to test them out):

http://www.splitfish.com/

But again, a lot of this is preference-based, especially if it is not required. For instance, it took me a while to adjust to a thumbstick when they first came out, but that was the only way to play Mario 64, so I had to bite the bullet (and don't regret it either!). But if I weren't forced to play with thumbstick, I might still be using a D-pad. Kinda like my missus - she doesn't want to "learn" a new input device if she doesn't have to - and she won't. 

Actually, from what I've seen this generation, I believe that manufacturers have decided it's time for not just the consoles to evolve, but the input devices as well.  Just to take a gander:

  • Nintendo have never released the same controller twice for their consoles.
  • Nintendo took a major gamle with the DS's touchscreen - and it paid off. 
  • Sony adds motion sensing with the Sixaxis.
  • Nintendo comes out with a console that is largely dependent on motion sensing; in addition to that, they come out with the Nunchuk.
  • Nintendo comes out with a Wii Fitness board.
  • Sony comes out with the Playstation Eye.
  • Sony comes out with the "new and improved" Playstation Eye (v2 I believe)
  • Konami releases a few games that are largely dependent on unique aftermarket control devices:
    • Dance Dance Revolution - dance mat
    • DJ Beat - turntables
    • DrumMania - drum kit
  • Other developers are releasing game-specific controllers:
    • Guitar Hero
    • Rock Band
  • Singstar requires a microphone.
  • Steel Batallions was released with a 200$ controller - and sold decently in Japan (a place where such a large device would literally occupy 1/2 your living room).
  • DK Bongo game - Bongos!

Peripherals like racing wheels, flight yokes and flight sticks have existed in PC gaming for ages.

I think this all points to a trend: The days of using just a gamepad to play all your games are numbered. Console manufacturers are aware of this. Game developers feel that they are no longer limited to developing games as there is a large market for peripherals to tap into. We are just seeing the start. I don't know what the future may have in store, but I do think it's going to be an exciting ride.



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mancandy said:

 You mean like in Missle Command? That was so 1980's.


lol

Or Centipede?  But seriously, they've come a long way and could provide mouse-like control with just your thumb.  How can that be a bad thing?



My End of 2008 Hardware Predictions (console only):

Wii : 50 million

360: 28 million

PS3: 24 million

These predictions were made on January 3rd and won't be revised

LINK

cringer8 said:
your mother said:

I feel it would be a major issue as up to now I can't think of a DS title that utilizes the touchscreen that doesn't require you to fix your eyes on the screen to know what you are doing.


Mario 64 DS and Metroid PH both used the touchpad as a virtual analog stick. No need to look at the lower screen.


I didn't know that, but I have Mario 64DS and I will try it out. Thanks for the tip. 



I suspect the days for traditional game pads are numbered. Honestly, look at gaming history: how has the basic control pad remain nearly untouched for three decades, as gaming exploded around them? Compare the NES controller to the 360 one. The 360 one has analog sticks and rumble; otherwise, they're effectively the same (the 360 has more buttons, that's about it).

Now, the game pad is attacked from both sides. Casual players seem to be preferring the Wii mote; and I can tell you from experience that high-skill gaming is simply easier with a mouse and keyboard. I expect the traditional controller to become an extended peripheral by the end of next generation. I'm not suggesting the Wii remote will dominate all; I'm saying it's clearly time for a change.

The game pad used to be the controller of choice for more casual gaming -- it's only real competition was the mouse/board, and obviously those have hundreds more buttons and a considerably steeper learning curve. The relatively few buttons allowed for game pads to be the simpler, easier choice. But it's not the simplest, easiest choice any longer, and that's a problem. 



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Cringer - I agree that the trackball is more precise for small movements, but what if it needs to be used for an action that a stick performed by holding it down? Flicking it repeatedly would be tiresome, adn simply flicking it hard letting momentum take over would ironically be far too imprecise for even large movements.

 

Thanks for the great topic, by the way.  



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Desroko said:
Cringer - I agree that the trackball is more precise for small movements, but what if it needs to be used for an action that a stick performed by holding it down? Flicking it repeatedly would be tiresome, adn simply flicking it hard letting momentum take over would ironically be far too imprecise for even large movements.

Actually, that's one of the problems I had with the ball for the first few days, but you'd be surprised how quickly the brain learns when to stop the ball at precisely the correct time.  I can now flick that little bastard and land the cursor almost exactly where I need it to end up. With more time, I'm sure it will only get better.



My End of 2008 Hardware Predictions (console only):

Wii : 50 million

360: 28 million

PS3: 24 million

These predictions were made on January 3rd and won't be revised

LINK

Desroko said:
your mother said:
Desroko said:
your mother said:
Desroko said:
I'd like to see touch pads icontinued; I like how the iPhone is used without a stylus, for example. There wouldn't be a need for d-pads anymore, which seem clunkier as time goes by.

I dunno. Touch pads can be nice, but there are two major inconveniences that I can think of off the top of my head:

  • Ever used a touchscreen-only remote control? They look slick and all, but you need to look at the screen to see which button you are pressing. With hard buttons (traditional remotes) you can feel the unique shapes and sizes of buttons which means you don't have to keep an eye on the remote in order to switch channels (which implies you take your eyes off the TV). Now put that into a gaming context and the problem is rather apparent.
  • Just imagine trying to pull off a "shoryuken" with a touchscreen!

I'm not sure either of this is really a problem. I've yet to see a game controller that has as many inputs as your average TV control, so it's not realy a valid comparison. The standard diamond-shaped pad can easily be recreated, as its four inputs in a rather large area, while a number pad has nine over a relatively smaller one. No one really looks down at the similarly-shaped face buttons on an Xbox or PS controller, because with a bit of practice your thumb knows where to go.

 

As for the second - just touch your thumb to the bottom of the pad and sweep it counter-clockwise for a quarter, and then press whatever corresponds to "Punch." To my mind this is quite a bit smoother than even the Xbox d-pad, which makes an effort to facilitate continuous motions.

I feel it would be a major issue as up to now I can't think of a DS title that utilizes the touchscreen that doesn't require you to fix your eyes on the screen to know what you are doing.

Well, with Mario Kart DS you just have to tap anywhere on the screen to switch between map modes, but then again, the touchscreen in this case serves only as a toggle.

Regarding the input issue: Let's compare a gamepad with a phone. They both have about the same number of buttons. I don't think you can dial a number on a touchscreen without looking at it. You can, however, do so with a phone with hard buttons.

I don't know how the iPhone handles this, but if they have come up with a way for you to dial a number without having to look at the touchscreen then I agree we may have a winner. Otherwise, I think touchscreen either needs to mature more, or perhaps there are other alternatives out there that are being researched.


I think I already mentioned this, but I'll explainmy thinking more clearly. Replicating a traditional nine-input number pad and a four-input d-pad aren't even close. The lower number of inputs and the different placement of the buttons make the latter far simpler.

But there's another issue - while it is indeed possible for you to recognize buttons on a d-pad by shape and placement alone, in practice very few gamers do. You don't feel for the Square button or X button - you know where they are. When holding a controller, your thumb can reach very few places, and the four buttons of a d-pad and the four quadrants of a similarly-sized touchpad are all in easy distance and set far enough from each other that you can easily find them, even under duress, without sight or touch. You just stab the area where you know the button to be, without hesitation.

This may be something that needs to physicaly verified in order to be believed (and unfortunately, I'm not going to whip up a prototype to prove my point), but I'm confident that this wouldn't be a problem.

 

Edit: It just occurred to me - if anyone is worried about knowing where you have pressed after you've done it, there's no reason for the pad to be physically indistinguishable from the casing. I'm seeing a circular pad, about the same size or slightly larger than an Xbox d-pad, raised slightly from the surface of the controller itself. That way you can feel the edge (or not) and know whether you've pressed in the center, the top, bottom, left, or right, or some combination. You'll be a natural in no time.


I'm not talking about comparing nine buttons on a phone with a d-pad. I'm talking about replicating all the buttons on a gamepad and incorporating them into a touchscreen. I think there would be an issue.

However, does anyone know how the iPhone works? I've heard some nice things about that screen, but up to now I haven't been able to get my hands on one so everything I know is still unfortunately theoretical.

I agree with the placement. You don't look at the buttons (Well, not the ones familiar to the controls anyhow! I do know people who still look to find the X or Y button because they don't play that frequently.) but again I am not sure if it would hold up under all circumstances (e.g. you shift your thumb a bit off-center to where the quadrants are aligned and you end up losing the "up" quadrant, for example. Sure, you can quickly look at the screen and shift your thumb accordingly to resolve the issue, but that is an issue that wouldn't exist with traditional buttons in the first place. Therefore, while it may improve certain aspects, it isn't without its problems.

The problem with having raised, indented or otherwise physical features on a touchscreen is that you are reducing its flexibility to that of assigned hard buttons (as per my previous reply to cringer8's post) which for me defeats the purpose of having a touchscreen in the first place - why replace buttons with what is essentially another set of buttons? 



cringer8 said:
mancandy said:

You mean like in Missle Command? That was so 1980's.


lol

Or Centipede? But seriously, they've come a long way and could provide mouse-like control with just your thumb. How can that be a bad thing?


I thought playing with those huge trackballs from those coin-ops was a blast! Nothing like the frantic ball spinning to pump up your adrenaline! 



cringer8 said:
Desroko said:
Cringer - I agree that the trackball is more precise for small movements, but what if it needs to be used for an action that a stick performed by holding it down? Flicking it repeatedly would be tiresome, adn simply flicking it hard letting momentum take over would ironically be far too imprecise for even large movements.

Actually, that's one of the problems I had with the ball for the first few days, but you'd be surprised how quickly the brain learns when to stop the ball at precisely the correct time. I can now flick that little bastard and land the cursor almost exactly where I need it to end up. With more time, I'm sure it will only get better.


 Hmm, interesting. Like I said elsewhere, I guess it's one of those things you need to experience. I'll look into buying a trackball-mouse and test it out a bit. 



your mother said:

The problem with having raised, indented or otherwise physical features on a touchscreen is that you are reducing its flexibility to that of assigned hard buttons (as per my previous reply to cringer8's post) which for me defeats the purpose of having a touchscreen in the first place - why replace buttons with what is essentially another set of buttons? 


You're absolutely correct.  But I do think having just a flat pad in the shape of a circle would be good enough for gamers.  We have pretty good spatial recognition :)



My End of 2008 Hardware Predictions (console only):

Wii : 50 million

360: 28 million

PS3: 24 million

These predictions were made on January 3rd and won't be revised

LINK