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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Reggie: Third parties don't "get" the Wii, more

Esa-Petteri said:

@donathos

What kind of game is the right game for wii?

And yeah, no-one should be making excuses. Yet there are some people on these forums who make excuses like "it is a niche title, it is a new ip, it is a watered down version,it was not marketed properly, retailers underestimated the demand" and so on.

 

Your question there -- "What kind of game is the right game for wii" -- is the exact question third parties should be asking themselves, and doing their damndest to answer.

Is that a cop-out? I mean, my personal answer if I'm completely honest would have to be "I don't know," and that's why I wouldn't recommend a company like Activision to give me a salary as a consultant. But Activision should be putting their crack staff on it -- they should find a consultant who does have some clue. I'd guess that CoD isn't their best possible answer to the question. They're releasing it because it's the more-or-less easy-ish thing to do and they're being rewarded with sales appropriate to their diligence.

If you, yourself, want to answer the question about what game is right for Wii, then I'd say start by really looking at the things that have had success, and trying to figure out what the root causes of those successes have been. Why have games like Sports, Play and Fit had success? Just because they're packed in with things? I doubt it -- part of the reason why Wii itself has sold as it has is word of mouth with Wii Sports; Wii has sold a lot of times because it is packed in with Sports, not vice-versa! Why have the music games had success? Why did RE4 have success? Etc. Also, I think it's important to look at some of the relative failures, like (so far) the most recent Madden, and try to figure that out, too.

I'd guess that any genre of game could succeed on the Wii, but probably not in the exact same ways they've done on other consoles traditionally, or currently do on other consoles. If I was going to make, say, a Wii FPS, I'd want to try to incorporate elements that I think have contributed to the successes of other games, like: personalization (and possibly Mii incorporation), an easy learning curve for new players (with options to allow for greater sophistication for older/more-advanced players), modes to allow for face-paced action at a party-like setting/lots of local-multiplayer madness; a way to appeal to other members of the family, old and young alike. Are you saying to yourself, "but that isn't the kind of FPS the core would be interested in"? If I did it right, everyone would be interested in it (just like a Guitar Hero II, or a Mario Kart Wii). Imagine if Nintendo were to create their "next great franchise," and make it an FPS -- how would they do it? Allowing that we couldn't put a machine-gun in Mario's hands (though that would be awesome), if I were a third party, I think I might try to beat Nintendo to that punch.

Or, maybe the better answer would be something that isn't even a traditional FPS, but something new that can still answer the FPS player's craving for face-paced, skill-driven competition. Something in an unexplored setting, etc.

Anyways, I'm getting far away from the point -- if I could create the Next Big Thing in videogames, I'd have a lot more money than I do. :) It's just not my place, whatever fun I can get from speculation.

But it is the place of video game designers to do it -- that is what they live or die by -- and so far, despite the incredible success of the Wii and its unprecedented market penetration, they don't seem to be making any large efforts to do their jobs. Fear and straight-out apathy seem to keep them making the same old things, in the same old ways, and just hoping it'll work out well enough.

Which is incredible, especially given the deteriorating world economy, the rising costs of HD game development, and the easier access of small competition to platforms like XBox Live, WiiWare, etc. In business -- in life -- it's adapt or die, and currently, many of these third parties seem content to be stagnant. It'll work out as well for them as it did for the dinosaurs.



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Esa-Petteri said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:

7 days ago EA announced a Wii Fit clone, called EA SPORTS Active.  I'm sure it will fail.  This is the problem many 3rd parties are having, and it's their own fault, not the fault of any mixed messages from Nintendo.  They are copying Nintendo instead of competing with Nintendo.  The genius of Wii Fit was that it had never been done before and took several new great ideas and put them all in one great package with a lot of effort and high production values.

The way to compete with Wii Fit would be to take several new great ideas and put them all in one great package with a lot of effort and high production values, not just copy Wii Fit's old great ideas and rush it out with low prodution values.  This is the same reason that Nintendogs does better than any Petz game on the market, and why Brain Training does better than any of its clones.

If developers are choosing to follow the leader instead of actually competing, then that's their own problem and they deserve to lose their money.  Also, where are the clones of Mario Galaxy and Mario Kart and Smash Bros.?  These idiotic developers don't have the balls to copy those games, so they copy the games that are cheaper to copy.  Because they are wimps in a business that only has room for giants.  There are tiny companies coming out with great original games (World of Goo, No More Heroes, etc.), but it's the big companies that have their heads so far up their asses they don't know how to compete.

I am also sure it will fail. After all, it is not bundled with a balance board? You'd have to own wii fit to play that game. But what is that? As far as I can see, a lot of the best selling and the most profitable 3rd party games are copies of wii play/sports. Carnival games and so on don't have to sell as much as wii sports to make a pretty nice profit.

The problem with smg,kart and smash bros is the nintendo characters on them. Third parties can't use them, so there is little point to copy those games. What is so great and original about no more heroes? World of goo is excellent. :)

You don't need the balance board to play EA SPORTS Active.  They're trying to appeal to people who are interested in exercise gaming but don't want to spend $90 on a game with a whole new peripheral.  It's good marketing strategy.  But that's all it is: a marketing strategy.  The idea behind the game is "copy Wii Fit but make it cheap."  That's what I'm talking about with EA and Ubisoft and many other 3rd parties.  They're copying rather than competing.

It's true that third parties can't use Nintendo's characters (most of the time)*, but they have their own flagship characters.  Why aren't they putting their flagship characters and flagship titles on the Wii?  The best-selling system should have some Castlevanias, Mega Mans, Final Fantasies, and everything else by now.  The developers are stupid and don't get the wii.  They give us on-rails spinoffs and a Castlevania 2-D fighter spinoff.  They have dreamed up this magical casual audience that for some reason only wants minigames and bad ripoffs, and doesn't want anything else.  We want some of everything.  We want old franchises, new IPs, and new genres. 

Developers are refusing to put their big budget games on the Wii, because they believe Wii users are stupid casuals who only want Carnival Games.  It is a self-fulfilling prophecy because they will ONLY make Carnival Games ripoffs.  They are stupid, and I really hope that the smaller companies (with bigger ideas) get to replace them.

 

And No More Heroes is in my opinion the greatest 3rd-person melee combat game of all time, because it's the only one I can actually play.  I normally hate games like Dynasty Warriors, Star Fox Adventures, God of War, Devil May Cry, etc.  I don't think beat-'em-ups work with 3-dimensions, because you just get surrounded by enemies and press the special move button and do some lame spin attack.  They're all the same button masher over and over.  Beat-'em-ups kicked ass in 2-dimensions (you could walk up and down, but could only attack left and right, so I'm calling them 2-D), like Double Dragon, River City Ransom, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Battletoads, etc.  We don't get these games in 3-D anymore, except new TMNT games, which suck ass compared to the old ones.

In No More Heroes however, they added this awesome gameplay mechanic that really made it fresh and new for me.  The angle at which you hold the remote determines your character's high or low stance.  If you raise or lower your arm, so does he.  You're still button-mashing like crazy, like every other pathetic 3-d melee beat-'em-up, but now I'm switching my stance (and so are the enemies) really fast, which makes it almost a new genre for me.  And the game has more personality than just about any other game.  It's got a hilarious and awesome story with great cutscenes and rad bosses.

 

*If the companies play their cards right, they can use Nintendo characters.  Square-Enix got to use Nintendo characters in Mario Hoops on the DS, and in Itadaki Street on the DS.  Konami got to make a Mario version of Dance Dance Revolution for the GameCube.  Namco got to use Link in Soulcalibur 2.  Sega got to make Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games.



Rubang

You go to your room, young man

And you don't come out until you've played some God Hand.



@donathos

Nice and long answer.

Yeah, mario fps would be a huge hit. Too bad that the third parties won't be getting that one. ;P

It is up to the devs, and I think they are doing a pretty good job at the moment. If you look at the profits they are making on wii games, why wouldn't they be? Low development costs for games like carnival games + good sales = big profits. I would not put a lot of money for developing games if I could get more profit for less investment...

And yeah, I think that a good wii title should be easy for the new players and at least somewhat challanging to more experienced players. I just fail to see how that is supposed to be achieved in many genres.



@ghost of rubang b

My point was that why should a wii fit owner buy another fitness game. If it is not bundled with balance board, it won't attract new buyers. Sounds like a total failure to me. :)

Now I get it. There is nothing original about NMH itself, it is the wiimote. Would DMC be original if it was on PS3/360 with wiimote-copy?



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Esa-Petteri said:
@ghost of rubang b

My point was that why should a wii fit owner buy another fitness game. If it is not bundled with balance board, it won't attract new buyers. Sounds like a total failure to me. :)

Now I get it. There is nothing original about NMH itself, it is the wiimote. Would DMC be original if it was on PS3/360 with wiimote-copy?

 

No More Heroes is a game you have to play in order to get. A lot of what makes it original is in the punk sensibilities, though the incorporation of the Wiimote does lend certain nice aspects to the combat. No More Heroes is generally set apart from the crowd by its quality, though.



Khuutra said:
Esa-Petteri said:
@ghost of rubang b

My point was that why should a wii fit owner buy another fitness game. If it is not bundled with balance board, it won't attract new buyers. Sounds like a total failure to me. :)

Now I get it. There is nothing original about NMH itself, it is the wiimote. Would DMC be original if it was on PS3/360 with wiimote-copy?

 

No More Heroes is a game you have to play in order to get. A lot of what makes it original is in the punk sensibilities, though the incorporation of the Wiimote does lend certain nice aspects to the combat. No More Heroes is generally set apart from the crowd by its quality, though.

 

Yeah, that could be. That is the one of the few wii games I might want to try. :) Maybe someday some of my friends get that. Before that, I can't see anything original about it.



I think they understand the Wii audience just fine. You put something like Cooking Mama on there, and it sells boatloads....you put something like No More Heroes on there, and it flops (yes, flops. I don't care what any of you Ninty fans say, under 500k is not a "success" otherwise Haze, Unreal Tournament 360, Tales of Vesperia, etc would be "successes")



BMaker11 said:
I think they understand the Wii audience just fine. You put something like Cooking Mama on there, and it sells boatloads....you put something like No More Heroes on there, and it flops (yes, flops. I don't care what any of you Ninty fans say, under 500k is not a "success" otherwise Haze, Unreal Tournament 360, Tales of Vesperia, etc would be "successes")

 

Suda 51 was ecstatic about the sales. It's the best-selling game Grasshopper Studios ever produced, easily made back its budget and then some, and sold far more than the publisher expected. How is that not a success?



BMaker11 said:
I think they understand the Wii audience just fine. You put something like Cooking Mama on there, and it sells boatloads....you put something like No More Heroes on there, and it flops (yes, flops. I don't care what any of you Ninty fans say, under 500k is not a "success" otherwise Haze, Unreal Tournament 360, Tales of Vesperia, etc would be "successes")

 

 

I am by no means nintendo-fan, but you should really consider development costs too. I know the numbers aren't available but it is pretty sure that most wii games are cheaper to develop than ps3/360 games. Not as much cheaper than some people think, but still cheaper. Of course on multiplatform titles development costs are shared, which makes defining a flop even more difficult. :)