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Forums - Sony Discussion - What's the point of cell?

Squilliam said:
It doesn't do floating point code as well as a GPU.

Actually it does the job better than GPU sometimes with floating point calculations. It really depends on application. Anyway for raster rendering its kind of useless and thats what GPU usually do only.



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bugrimmar said:
so in the end of it all, with all of the cell's power, how come pc games are still far superior graphically?

 

Several reasons spring to mind

 

1) The PC has mandatory install for all games, the PS3 only has it for their most graphically challenging ones

2) RAM - the PS3 has 256 mb of mian ram, and a video card with 256 mb of dedicated Ram - most computers have multiple times this. My friend just assembled a gaming rig with 4 GB ram and a 512 mb video card

3) As everyone has said, 7 cores is not useful for gaming, and developers are much more practiced at getting the best out of PCs

 

Or was that rhetorical?



Deneidez said:
Squilliam said:
It doesn't do floating point code as well as a GPU.

Actually it does the job better than GPU sometimes with floating point calculations. It really depends on application. Anyway for raster rendering its kind of useless and thats what GPU usually do only.

Certainly not the raw throughput. I've been reading up on the compute shader in the Direct 3d SDK and its looking pretty cool. By the time the PS4 is out we'll probably be looking at the draft spec if not the final result for direct 3d 12. I Was more talking about the future since the software to take advantage of the Cells unique abilities hasn't been written either.

 



Tease.

Squilliam said:
Deneidez said:
Squilliam said:
It doesn't do floating point code as well as a GPU.

Actually it does the job better than GPU sometimes with floating point calculations. It really depends on application. Anyway for raster rendering its kind of useless and thats what GPU usually do only.

Certainly not the raw throughput. I've been reading up on the compute shader in the Direct 3d SDK and its looking pretty cool. By the time the PS4 is out we'll probably be looking at the draft spec if not the final result for direct 3d 12. I Was more talking about the future since the software to take advantage of the Cells unique abilities hasn't been written either.

Well, it is shown that CELL can do nicely raytracing when compared to regular CPU or GPU,

http://web.archive.org/web/20080123121030/http://gametomorrow.com/blog/index.php/2007/09/05/cell-vs-g80/

(GPU architecture just isn't made for raytracing. :P)

 

Anyway, theres no really need for raytracing or extra power for floating point operations in todays games so it really doesn't matter from game point of view.

 

I predict that MikeB will show up soon and start pasting things he doesn't really understand himself.



Deneidez said:
Squilliam said:
Deneidez said:
Squilliam said:
It doesn't do floating point code as well as a GPU.

Actually it does the job better than GPU sometimes with floating point calculations. It really depends on application. Anyway for raster rendering its kind of useless and thats what GPU usually do only.

Certainly not the raw throughput. I've been reading up on the compute shader in the Direct 3d SDK and its looking pretty cool. By the time the PS4 is out we'll probably be looking at the draft spec if not the final result for direct 3d 12. I Was more talking about the future since the software to take advantage of the Cells unique abilities hasn't been written either.

Well, it is shown that CELL can do nicely raytracing when compared to regular CPU or GPU,

http://web.archive.org/web/20080123121030/http://gametomorrow.com/blog/index.php/2007/09/05/cell-vs-g80/

(GPU architecture just isn't made for raytracing. :P)

 

Anyway, theres no really need for raytracing or extra power for floating point operations in todays games so it really doesn't matter from game point of view.

 

I predict that MikeB will show up soon and start pasting things he doesn't really understand himself.

And ray-tracing isn't made for real time!

 



Tease.

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First idea was to use Cell for graphics. Sony realize that they overestimate Cell power too late. They have no time and rush to nVidia for GPU. They choose the one that was better then "official 360 GPU specification". If you remember after PS3 came out ATI announce that Xenos is actually better then RSX, but MS lower Xenos specifications to mislead SONY.



Squilliam said:
Deneidez said:
Squilliam said:
Deneidez said:
Squilliam said:
It doesn't do floating point code as well as a GPU.

Actually it does the job better than GPU sometimes with floating point calculations. It really depends on application. Anyway for raster rendering its kind of useless and thats what GPU usually do only.

Certainly not the raw throughput. I've been reading up on the compute shader in the Direct 3d SDK and its looking pretty cool. By the time the PS4 is out we'll probably be looking at the draft spec if not the final result for direct 3d 12. I Was more talking about the future since the software to take advantage of the Cells unique abilities hasn't been written either.

Well, it is shown that CELL can do nicely raytracing when compared to regular CPU or GPU,

http://web.archive.org/web/20080123121030/http://gametomorrow.com/blog/index.php/2007/09/05/cell-vs-g80/

(GPU architecture just isn't made for raytracing. :P)

 

Anyway, theres no really need for raytracing or extra power for floating point operations in todays games so it really doesn't matter from game point of view.

 

I predict that MikeB will show up soon and start pasting things he doesn't really understand himself.

And ray-tracing isn't made for real time!

 

I remembered seeing a demo a few months back of a real-time raytracing demo using the CBE. A quick Google search yields all kinds of info on real-time raytracing using the PS3 by developers/programmers.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/227820.html (clustered PS3s running LINUX)

http://eric_rollins.home.mindspring.com/ray/ray.html (individual programmer project)

http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/irt (interactive raytracer for CBE)

So, the CBE is not the problem for the PS3. The issue is mainly memory (lack of) and reliance upon GPUs that simply age too quickly to stay on the edge of graphical development.

The RSX is the rough equivalent of a Nvidia G70/7800 GPU commonly used in high end gaming PCs back in 2006. Emphasis: back in 2006. Most of the cards based upon that GPU only shipped with 256MB of VRAM as well.

You'd be hard pressed to find a single serious gamer using a G70 based graphical solution unless they were using an old laptop, or were too poor to afford a cheap G94 or G92 based VGA card for even a $100. Most serious gamers have already moved forward two generations to an R770/4000 series ATI GPU or a GTX200 series Nvidia GPU(s).

 

So the point is pretty much as an end user, most non-tech savvy individuals are not going to see the merits of the CBE as a developing technology.

The gullible will buy it simply from being overly succeptible to marketing claims and the ability to boast about having something they don't even fully understand.

 



NJ5 said:

The Cell in its PS3 incarnation is a great processor for some applications, especially the ones which have the following characteristics:

1- not hard to distribute to a large number of cores (PS3's Cell has 7 cores)
2- intensive number-crunching without the need double-precision arithmetic (it's great for half or single precision arithmetic, but only gets around 1 GFLOP/s per core in double-precision which isn't great for a 3.2 GHz CPU)
3- each thread doesn't need to access tremendous amount of data (each core has a small amount of fast memory and other data needs to be transferred manually from memory)

If your application fulfills most of that, the Cell will give you great performance AND programming ease. Otherwise, performance, ease of programming or both will suffer.

Unfortunately, game engines don't fulfill the first attribute, and they only partly fulfill the second and third. This means it's hard to get performance out of the Cell on games, and much harder to tap the full power it has. It's already hard to fully tap a dual-core processor, it's much harder to tap 7 cores.

You don't have to take it from me though. Killzone 2's developers made a diagram which shows how much of the Cell they're tapping after years of engine development:



Notice that they're only using 5 of the 7 available cores, and even then not completely with lots of wasted CPU power (blank areas).

I'm not a games programmer, but based on the facts above and the opinions I've read from games programmers, I don't think the Cell was a very good choice for the PS3. A simpler processor would have been better given the complexity of making games.

 

    So that kinda proves that Killzone 2 can be handled by Xbox 360 as well, since only 5 processors are utilized and the last 2 processors are mostly idle, besides 360 has 3 general cores, each of which is easier to program for and utilize. It is also a much cheaper and more efficient solution.

 



Playstation 5 vs XBox Series Market Share Estimates

Regional Analysis  (only MS and Sony Consoles)
Europe     => XB1 : 23-24 % vs PS4 : 76-77%
N. America => XB1 :  49-52% vs PS4 : 48-51%
Global     => XB1 :  32-34% vs PS4 : 66-68%

Sales Estimations for 8th Generation Consoles

Next Gen Consoles Impressions and Estimates

No, it wouldn't have the same effects as a version running with CBE assisted physics.

You can speculate all you'd like, but the issue is pretty much moot anyway since it's not going to be released on the 360.

When we see a 360 game that uses the same level of effects running on a title, only then could such a claim be made.

Totally non-related, but the other game PS3 fans who like to claim could not run on the 360, even if storage wasn't an issue (MGS4): it not only can, but it does - it's just not going to be released (yet).



well he was made to be teh perfect warriior once he ate a couple of androids then he was going to destroy teh world ...not a real point other then for the z fighters to battle with