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Forums - General - Do you believe in god, if not do you believe in something else?

puffy said:
There isn't enough evidence for the big bang, same as with the bible and any religion on the planet..

We do have enough evidence for evolution and just having completed my biology and genetics course I can tell you that 'the missing link' makes no sense if you've actually researched or learnt about the hominin fossils that have been found..

The problem is that scientists can't agree on the order due to more than one homo species existing at the same time in some cases..

With that aside I'd like you to answer me this..

The Homo genus evolved through speciation to have bigger brains, Homo sapiens have the largest frontal lobes which allows us to think logically, again medically proven, and only homo sapiens and homo neandathalians (spelling?) were actually the ones to bury their dead and cave paint and actually seek bonds with others of the opposite sex

What does a 'soul' have to do with your frontal lobes? Perhaps a soul is there and it gives us something but you can't say it gives us the will to marry etc

 

Evolution does not explain how life started. If anything origin of life science has become worse as it were over time, as stuff like the famous Miller experiment, scientists now agree is not accurate at all. Atheists have no idea how life started. An analogy I like is starting life is like putting protien in a test tube and shaking it to form a cell, it doesn't happen! If life is so easy to create, why haven't scientist been able to replicate the first replicating protiens?



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hsrob said:

This is wrong.  The Big Bang theory states that knowledge of time and matter before the Big Bang and the physical laws that governed them are unknowable and have no direct influence on our universe and universal laws that exist now, not that nothing existed prior.

Just because many people may not be able to understand the intricies and complexities of a theory like the Big Bang doesn't make it untrue.  Layperson's logic told us for centuries that the world was flat despite the fact that there were mathematicians in about 450 B.C. that proved using relatively simple maths that the world was in fact round.  Yet the idea persisted in western countries for close to 2 millenia because most people couldn't 'see for themselves'.

 

Bang on. hsrob = win.

 



Faith in a god is not a rational idea for me. I believe that too much evidence exists to disprove god to allow her to be real I'm afraid.

Also, no offense, but the religious approach to exploration of science and nature appears to be " here's the answer, now what evidence can we find" where as the scientific method makes much more sense because it is a "Here's the evidence, what answers can we deduce?" method



Tispower1 said:
Soleron said:

 

To quote Michael Ruse, "The God Delusion makes me embarrassed to be an atheist". Frankly that book is a load of hot air, and trying to say religion is bad doesn't change whether God exists or not. Also if you're going to to play that game, I seem to remember Atheism brought us Hitler and Stalin who were obviously fine fellows (!). On top of that, Dawkins rants about Christianity, because he says that's what he knows best, yet seem to never have read the bible given at how wrong he is when he quote scripture!

Firstly, Dawkins shows how wrong Ruse is in the book. Of course, atheists are free to disagree with one another, unlike religious people.

I agree with your second point, but again Dawkins (and I) are against religion, not God. A God that doesn't tell us what to do is practically irreleveant and an academic question. Most people act based on religion, and that is the really bad thing worth arguing.

The "Hitler and Stalin" argument is ALSO dealt with by Dawkins. He says that 1) It is unclear whether Hitler was an atheist or Catholic - there are reliable quotes either way. 2) Stalin didn't kill people BECAUSE of Atheism - Atheism doesn't tell us anything about morality or what to do; it's just a position. On the other hand, people DO kill people due to religion (current Middle East/Terrorism situation; Northern Ireland; most African conflicts like Darfur).

Finally, the Bible and most other religious texts contradict themselves and are often vague/mistranslated so you can come up with any view you like and use it as "evidence". Just look at the number of very different Christian and Islamic denominations that all use the same passages to support wildly different things. Dawkins said that he would have used theological writings more seriously in the book "if there was any chance he could illuminate his central question with them."

 

 

 



A pic combining all ideas lol...

 

Also originally from a website called www.dildoa.org lol



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Soleron said:
Tispower1 said:
Soleron said:

 

To quote Michael Ruse, "The God Delusion makes me embarrassed to be an atheist". Frankly that book is a load of hot air, and trying to say religion is bad doesn't change whether God exists or not. Also if you're going to to play that game, I seem to remember Atheism brought us Hitler and Stalin who were obviously fine fellows (!). On top of that, Dawkins rants about Christianity, because he says that's what he knows best, yet seem to never have read the bible given at how wrong he is when he quote scripture!

Firstly, Dawkins shows how wrong Ruse is in the book. Of course, atheists are free to disagree with one another, unlike religious people.

I agree with your second point, but again Dawkins (and I) are against religion, not God. A God that doesn't tell us what to do is practically irreleveant and an academic question. Most people act based on religion, and that is the really bad thing worth arguing.

The "Hitler and Stalin" argument is ALSO dealt with by Dawkins. He says that 1) It is unclear whether Hitler was an atheist or Catholic - there are reliable quotes either way. 2) Stalin didn't kill people BECAUSE of Atheism - Atheism doesn't tell us anything about morality or what to do; it's just a position. On the other hand, people DO kill people due to religion (current Middle East/Terrorism situation; Northern Ireland; most African conflicts like Darfur).

Finally, the Bible and most other religious texts contradict themselves and are often vague/mistranslated so you can come up with any view you like and use it as "evidence". Just look at the number of very different Christian and Islamic denominations that all use the same passages to support wildly different things. Dawkins said that he would have used theological writings more seriously in the book "if there was any chance he could illuminate his central question with them."

 

 

 

 

Your 2 points seem to contradict each other, you say that Atheism doesn't teach us how to behave, yet don't seem to realise that nothing in the Bible holds up the Crusades or Northern Ireland as something that God would want to happen. Qu'ran on the other hand is a different matter.

Also you say Atheists disagree with each other, but 'Religious People' (care to be more specific) can't, then say they do disagree with each other, if you mean that there's lots of different types of Christianity, then yes I agree that is extremely unhelpful and is frankly a bad thing, hence why I don't belong to a particular 'denomination'.



 

 I'm going to quote some site, talkorigins. It has to do with the statement "something can not come out of nothing", but note this aswell: the big bang is not about the origin of the universe. Rather, its primary focus is the development of the universe over time.

The simple statement "something can not come out of nothing" is, in itself, not very convincing. From quantum field theory, we know that something does indeed come from nothing: to wit, "vacuum fluctuations". In the simplest case, an electron, a positron and a photon can appear effectively out of nowhere, exist for a brief time and then annihilate, leaving no net creation of mass or energy. Experimental support for this sort of effect has been found from a number of different experiments. See, for instance, the Wikipedia page for the Casimir effect.

The common point for all of these effects is that they do not violate any known conservation laws of physics (e.g., the conservation of energy, momentum, and charge). Something can indeed come out of nothing as long as these conservation laws permit this. But people often argue that the Big Bang theory violates the conservation of energy (which is essentially the first law of thermodynamics).

There are several valid counterarguments against this: first, as already pointed out, the BBT is not about the origin of the universe, but rather its development with time. Hence, any statement that the appearance of the universe "out of nothing" is impossible has nothing to do with what the BBT actually addresses. Likewise, while the laws of thermodynamics apply to the universe today, it is not clear that they necessarily apply to the origin of the universe; we simply do not know. Finally, it is not clear that one can sensibly talk about time "before the Big Bang". "Time" is an integral part of our universe (hence the GR term "spacetime") - so it is not clear how exactly one would characterize the energy before and after the Big Bang in a precise enough way to conclude it was not conserved.

Assuming we have some way to handle notions of time outside of our spacetime, the universe appearing out of nothing would only violate the first law of thermodynamics if the energy beforehand were different from the energy afterwards. Probably all people will agree that "nothingness" should have an energy of zero; so the law is only violated if the energy of the universe is non-zero. But there are indeed good arguments that the energy of the universe should be exactly zero!

This conclusion is somewhat counter-intuitive at first sight, since obviously all the mass and radiation we see in the universe has a huge amount of associated energy. However, this tally ignores the gravitational potential energy within the universe. In the Newtonian limit, we can get a feel for this contribution by considering the standard example of a rocket leaving the Earth, with a velocity great enough to "escape" from its gravitational field. Travelling farther and farther away from the earth, the velocity of the rocket becomes smaller and smaller, going to zero "at infinity". Hence the rocket has no energy left "at infinity" (neglecting its "rest energy" here, which is irrelevant for the argument). Applying conservation of energy, it follows that the energy of the rocket was also zero when it left Earth. But it had a high velocity then, i.e., large kinetic energy. It follows that the gravitational potential energy it had on the Earth was negative. For another explanation, see e.g. this post about Negative gravitational energy.

In a Nature article in 1973, E. Tryon sketched an argument that the negative gravitational potential energy of the universe has the same magnitude as the positive energy contained in its contents (matter and radiation), and hence the total energy of the universe is indeed zero (or at least close to zero).

Part of the difficulty here is that the concept of "gravitational energy" is essentially a Newtonian one. In GR, the principle of equivalence makes defining a gravitational energy that will be coherently viewed from all frames of reference problematic. Likewise, the idea of the "total energy of the universe" is difficult to define properly. Misner, Thorne and Wheeler (one of the standard texts on GR) discuss this at length in chapter 20 of their book.

Another approach is Wald's "Hamiltonian" or "Hamilton function" for GR as derived in his GR text. In classical physics, this function can (almost always) be interpreted as representing the total energy of a given system. Using this formalism, Wald shows that, for a closed universe, the Hamiltonian is zero. Similar arguments can be applied to the same effect for a flat universe, although for an open universe the formulation for the Hamiltonian ends up ill-defined.

Other efforts to deal with conservation of energy in GR have used so-called "pseudo-tensors". This approach was tried by Einstein, among many others. However, the current view is that proper physical models should be formulated using only tensors (see again Misner, Thorne and Wheeler, chapter 20), so this approach has fallen out of favor.

However, this leaves us with something of a quandary: in the absence of a proper definition of gravitational potential energy, the law of conservation of energy from classical mechanics clearly does not hold in GR. Thus, for any theory based on GR, like BBT, conservation of energy is clearly not something that can be held against it. Hence, the first law of thermodynamics argument becomes moot.



 

Tispower1 said:

 

Your 2 points seem to contradict each other, you say that Atheism doesn't teach us how to behave, yet don't seem to realise that nothing in the Bible holds up the Crusades or Northern Ireland as something that God would want to happen. Qu'ran on the other hand is a different matter.

Also you say Atheists disagree with each other, but 'Religious People' (care to be more specific) can't, then say they do disagree with each other, if you mean that there's lots of different types of Christianity, then yes I agree that is extremely unhelpful and is frankly a bad thing, hence why I don't belong to a particular 'denomination'.

 

First point: Um, Jericho? The Old Testament is full of passages about God specifically wanting the Israelites to kill people of other religions in order to make him the only God and claim their right to the land. Sure, an all-good God wouldn't "want" it to happen (but as I said Christianity's God is not all-good in the Old Testament), but nevertheless the Crusades, etc. were motivated directly by religious beliefs. If religion did not exist, these wars would not happened or would have been less severe.

Second Point: Obviously religious people do disagree with one another. However, they are not 'meant' to: every religion ever specifies that there is only one true belief. The fact that religious texts frequently contradict themselves is proof that they can't logically be the literal truth. Atheism has nothing to "stop" people from disagreeing with each other by virtue of it implying nothing at all.

So, you are a Christian, but you don't belong to a denomination? Whatever beliefs you do have, someone somewhere who considers themselves just as Christian as you will think you are wrong. Obviously either you or they are wrong - and the Bible can be used to support either side by using it selectively. How can YOU tell you are more right than them?



Soleron said:
Tispower1 said:

 

Your 2 points seem to contradict each other, you say that Atheism doesn't teach us how to behave, yet don't seem to realise that nothing in the Bible holds up the Crusades or Northern Ireland as something that God would want to happen. Qu'ran on the other hand is a different matter.

Also you say Atheists disagree with each other, but 'Religious People' (care to be more specific) can't, then say they do disagree with each other, if you mean that there's lots of different types of Christianity, then yes I agree that is extremely unhelpful and is frankly a bad thing, hence why I don't belong to a particular 'denomination'.

 

First point: Um, Jericho? The Old Testament is full of passages about God specifically wanting the Israelites to kill people of other religions in order to make him the only God and claim their right to the land. Sure, an all-good God wouldn't "want" it to happen (but as I said Christianity's God is not all-good in the Old Testament), but nevertheless the Crusades, etc. were motivated directly by religious beliefs. If religion did not exist, these wars would not happened or would have been less severe.

Second Point: Obviously religious people do disagree with one another. However, they are not 'meant' to: every religion ever specifies that there is only one true belief. The fact that religious texts frequently contradict themselves is proof that they can't logically be the literal truth. Atheism has nothing to "stop" people from disagreeing with each other by virtue of it implying nothing at all.

So, you are a Christian, but you don't belong to a denomination? Whatever beliefs you do have, someone somewhere who considers themselves just as Christian as you will think you are wrong. Obviously either you or they are wrong - and the Bible can be used to support either side by using it selectively. How can YOU tell you are more right than them?

 

That is a very good question. I will never just agree with something because someone said it, I'd want to investigate it myself. For example see what that Bible says on the issue, and then take the viewpoint that would fit with the character of God.

In regards to the Old Testament, it's the New Testament that tells Christian's to live their lives, after all Christians wnat to be like Christ, but the Old Testament is more to do with how Christianity came about. And I think the reason people's behaviour seems to differ, is that they were effectively doing what they needed to survive, I mean if God was like people described him, surely he would make his special people as powerful as the Romans?



draik said:

 

 I'm going to quote some site, talkorigins. It has to do with the statement "something can not come out of nothing", but note this aswell: the big bang is not about the origin of the universe. Rather, its primary focus is the development of the universe over time.

The simple statement "something can not come out of nothing" is, in itself, not very convincing. From quantum field theory, we know that something does indeed come from nothing: to wit, "vacuum fluctuations". In the simplest case, an electron, a positron and a photon can appear effectively out of nowhere, exist for a brief time and then annihilate, leaving no net creation of mass or energy. Experimental support for this sort of effect has been found from a number of different experiments. See, for instance, the Wikipedia page for the Casimir effect.

The common point for all of these effects is that they do not violate any known conservation laws of physics (e.g., the conservation of energy, momentum, and charge). Something can indeed come out of nothing as long as these conservation laws permit this. But people often argue that the Big Bang theory violates the conservation of energy (which is essentially the first law of thermodynamics).

There are several valid counterarguments against this: first, as already pointed out, the BBT is not about the origin of the universe, but rather its development with time. Hence, any statement that the appearance of the universe "out of nothing" is impossible has nothing to do with what the BBT actually addresses. Likewise, while the laws of thermodynamics apply to the universe today, it is not clear that they necessarily apply to the origin of the universe; we simply do not know. Finally, it is not clear that one can sensibly talk about time "before the Big Bang". "Time" is an integral part of our universe (hence the GR term "spacetime") - so it is not clear how exactly one would characterize the energy before and after the Big Bang in a precise enough way to conclude it was not conserved.

Assuming we have some way to handle notions of time outside of our spacetime, the universe appearing out of nothing would only violate the first law of thermodynamics if the energy beforehand were different from the energy afterwards. Probably all people will agree that "nothingness" should have an energy of zero; so the law is only violated if the energy of the universe is non-zero. But there are indeed good arguments that the energy of the universe should be exactly zero!

This conclusion is somewhat counter-intuitive at first sight, since obviously all the mass and radiation we see in the universe has a huge amount of associated energy. However, this tally ignores the gravitational potential energy within the universe. In the Newtonian limit, we can get a feel for this contribution by considering the standard example of a rocket leaving the Earth, with a velocity great enough to "escape" from its gravitational field. Travelling farther and farther away from the earth, the velocity of the rocket becomes smaller and smaller, going to zero "at infinity". Hence the rocket has no energy left "at infinity" (neglecting its "rest energy" here, which is irrelevant for the argument). Applying conservation of energy, it follows that the energy of the rocket was also zero when it left Earth. But it had a high velocity then, i.e., large kinetic energy. It follows that the gravitational potential energy it had on the Earth was negative. For another explanation, see e.g. this post about Negative gravitational energy.

In a Nature article in 1973, E. Tryon sketched an argument that the negative gravitational potential energy of the universe has the same magnitude as the positive energy contained in its contents (matter and radiation), and hence the total energy of the universe is indeed zero (or at least close to zero).

Part of the difficulty here is that the concept of "gravitational energy" is essentially a Newtonian one. In GR, the principle of equivalence makes defining a gravitational energy that will be coherently viewed from all frames of reference problematic. Likewise, the idea of the "total energy of the universe" is difficult to define properly. Misner, Thorne and Wheeler (one of the standard texts on GR) discuss this at length in chapter 20 of their book.

Another approach is Wald's "Hamiltonian" or "Hamilton function" for GR as derived in his GR text. In classical physics, this function can (almost always) be interpreted as representing the total energy of a given system. Using this formalism, Wald shows that, for a closed universe, the Hamiltonian is zero. Similar arguments can be applied to the same effect for a flat universe, although for an open universe the formulation for the Hamiltonian ends up ill-defined.

Other efforts to deal with conservation of energy in GR have used so-called "pseudo-tensors". This approach was tried by Einstein, among many others. However, the current view is that proper physical models should be formulated using only tensors (see again Misner, Thorne and Wheeler, chapter 20), so this approach has fallen out of favor.

However, this leaves us with something of a quandary: in the absence of a proper definition of gravitational potential energy, the law of conservation of energy from classical mechanics clearly does not hold in GR. Thus, for any theory based on GR, like BBT, conservation of energy is clearly not something that can be held against it. Hence, the first law of thermodynamics argument becomes moot.

Seems rather similar to my problems with evolution, big bang doesn't explain the origin.