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Forums - General Discussion - Has the US been a socialist country during large parts of the last century?

I'm interested about your thoughts on the US welfare and tax policies during the 20th century. If you look at the taxes during the 50's and 60's the US probably had higher taxes than Sweden had back then, but did people accuse the presidents of being 'over the top communists'? What are your thoughts on 'New Deal', 'The Great Society' and the other ('socialistic') reforms done during the 20th century?

 

 



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The USA is more capitalist than any country in the world but it is still heavily influenced by socialism. There is nothing terrible about socialism really so long as it isn't totalliterean. The issue alot of voters think if the the government has the rights to tax and provide services you dont want...whats to stop it from taking away other freedoms, beyond economic ones



People are difficult to govern because they have too much knowledge.

When there are more laws, there are more criminals.

- Lao Tzu

The New Deal only lengthened the Great Depression imo. THe U.S. is a mixed market economy but is primarily capitalistic. Obama wants to move more towards socialism, and McCain wants to hold the line or perhaps become slightly more capitalistic. 70-90% income tax for highest earners in WW2 doesn't count as socialism imo because we were funding a War we actually cared about winning.



Yes, I definitely understand the distrust in the 'fat cats' and the federal government. We actually have the same discussion here in Europe, on state souvereinity visavi the EU. The funny thing is that the 'opposition' here is led by the communists together with the nationalists.



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Hawkeye said:
The New Deal only lengthened the Great Depression imo. THe U.S. is a mixed market economy but is primarily capitalistic. Obama wants to move more towards socialism, and McCain wants to hold the line or perhaps become slightly more capitalistic. 70-90% income tax for highest earners in WW2 doesn't count as socialism imo because we were funding a War we actually cared about winning.

 

But you had the highest income tax AFTER WWII, in the 60's if I remember correctly.

 

TheSource said:

The USA is more capitalist than any country in the world...

 

I think that Russia and large parts of the 'New Europe' are far more capitalist than the US, since the economic 'experts' wanted to turn them into hyper-neo liberal economies and downsize the state as much as possible. This is of course countered by new nationalistic movements. 

 

 



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TheSource said:

The USA is more capitalist than any country in the world but it is still heavily influenced by socialism. There is nothing terrible about socialism really so long as it isn't totalliterean. The issue alot of voters think if the the government has the rights to tax and provide services you dont want...whats to stop it from taking away other freedoms, beyond economic ones

Hong Kong is probably more capitalistic than the U.S., but that is the only example I can think of.

OT: The U.S. is way more socialist than most people are willing to admit or even realize.  Socialism is a dirty word in name only.  People love the U.S.'s socialist policies and would revolt if you tried to take them away.  Its a really interesting logical conundrum.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

akuma587 said:
TheSource said:

The USA is more capitalist than any country in the world but it is still heavily influenced by socialism. There is nothing terrible about socialism really so long as it isn't totalliterean. The issue alot of voters think if the the government has the rights to tax and provide services you dont want...whats to stop it from taking away other freedoms, beyond economic ones

Hong Kong is probably more capitalistic than the U.S., but that is the only example I can think of.

OT: The U.S. is way more socialist than most people are willing to admit or even realize.  Socialism is a dirty word in name only.  People love the U.S.'s socialist policies and would revolt if you tried to take them away.  Its a really interesting logical conundrum.

 

 

 I’ve seen several interviews with Jonah Goldberg who wrote a book called Liberal Fascism which I intend on reading because he has brought up some interesting things; part of the reason I want to actually read the book is to see whether he can back up the interesting 5 to 10 minute discussions with facts and well thought out arguments.

One of the things that he pointed out was that Fascism is amazingly popular because it is never sold as a loss of personal rights and freedoms to a totalitarian government, it is typically promoted as an increase in the role of government to solve social/economic problems (often in the shape of "socialist" social programs). As the size and power of the government increases people have less ability to handle abuses of that power by the government and it (tends to) fall down the slippery slope of becoming a totalitarian regime.

I’m in no way saying that social programs that are proposed by any major party in a democracy in the western world will lead to a fascist state. All I am saying is ... Just because something the government does is popular doesn’t mean they should take on that role, and everyone should be careful to not allow the government to increase its power without putting in place proper checks and balances.



HappySqurriel said:

One of the things that he pointed out was that Fascism is amazingly popular because it is never sold as a loss of personal rights and freedoms to a totalitarian government, it is typically promoted as an increase in the role of government to solve social/economic problems (often in the shape of "socialist" social programs). As the size and power of the government increases people have less ability to handle abuses of that power by the government and it (tends to) fall down the slippery slope of becoming a totalitarian regime.

 

In that case internalized neoliberalism must work even better since the conglomerate of fatcats can keep the people in control without coercion.



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HappySqurriel said:
akuma587 said:
TheSource said:

The USA is more capitalist than any country in the world but it is still heavily influenced by socialism. There is nothing terrible about socialism really so long as it isn't totalliterean. The issue alot of voters think if the the government has the rights to tax and provide services you dont want...whats to stop it from taking away other freedoms, beyond economic ones

Hong Kong is probably more capitalistic than the U.S., but that is the only example I can think of.

OT: The U.S. is way more socialist than most people are willing to admit or even realize.  Socialism is a dirty word in name only.  People love the U.S.'s socialist policies and would revolt if you tried to take them away.  Its a really interesting logical conundrum.

 

 

 I’ve seen several interviews with Jonah Goldberg who wrote a book called Liberal Fascism which I intend on reading because he has brought up some interesting things; part of the reason I want to actually read the book is to see whether he can back up the interesting 5 to 10 minute discussions with facts and well thought out arguments.

One of the things that he pointed out was that Fascism is amazingly popular because it is never sold as a loss of personal rights and freedoms to a totalitarian government, it is typically promoted as an increase in the role of government to solve social/economic problems (often in the shape of "socialist" social programs). As the size and power of the government increases people have less ability to handle abuses of that power by the government and it (tends to) fall down the slippery slope of becoming a totalitarian regime.

I’m in no way saying that social programs that are proposed by any major party in a democracy in the western world will lead to a fascist state. All I am saying is ... Just because something the government does is popular doesn’t mean they should take on that role, and everyone should be careful to not allow the government to increase its power without putting in place proper checks and balances.

I think you just perfectly described the current administration!!!

 



whatever said:
HappySqurriel said:

 

 I’ve seen several interviews with Jonah Goldberg who wrote a book called Liberal Fascism which I intend on reading because he has brought up some interesting things; part of the reason I want to actually read the book is to see whether he can back up the interesting 5 to 10 minute discussions with facts and well thought out arguments.

One of the things that he pointed out was that Fascism is amazingly popular because it is never sold as a loss of personal rights and freedoms to a totalitarian government, it is typically promoted as an increase in the role of government to solve social/economic problems (often in the shape of "socialist" social programs). As the size and power of the government increases people have less ability to handle abuses of that power by the government and it (tends to) fall down the slippery slope of becoming a totalitarian regime.

I’m in no way saying that social programs that are proposed by any major party in a democracy in the western world will lead to a fascist state. All I am saying is ... Just because something the government does is popular doesn’t mean they should take on that role, and everyone should be careful to not allow the government to increase its power without putting in place proper checks and balances.

I think you just perfectly described the current administration!!!

 

Indeed, here are your choices:

Democrats:

Big Government that will help you

Republicans:

Big Government that will spy on you, hide secrets from you, suppress all kinds of information, torture people, rinse wash repeat.

Guess which one I voted for!

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson