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Forums - General Discussion - More Drilling in America Issue is Silly

Rath said:
TheRealMafoo said:
stof said:
It's weird to think that one day, people will look back on the era of Oil, and wonder how we could be so short sighted as to just keep trying to squeeze as much as we could out of the planet while knowing full well that it was a finite resource.

 

That won't happen. We will do with oil what we did with every other form of energy. Find something better before we run out of it.

I said to my friends 5 years ago, that the only way to get off of oil, is for Gas to go to $5.00 a gallon.

Nothing sparks innovation like capitalism. The government can spend billions over many years, and never come up with what Toyota can in a few years, if profit is involved.

Now that gas is high, we have dozens of options coming out. Air powered cars, Plug in's, Diesels entering the US again, Hydrogen Electric hybrids, Natural Gas....

The alternative fuel market is going like crazy, and it has nothing to do with government involvement.

Yes it will, humanity has never had a source of energy that we have depended upon as much as oil and we certainly have never managed to go through any other resource like we do oil. Future generations will find the idea of us sucking the planet almost entirely dry of a resource quite interesting I think.

Now with some of your ideas (natural gas, hybrids and diesels) we encounter the problem that they still rely on fossil fuels. The others are more sensible alternative fuels for cars, though I had never heard of air power being seriously considered (though I have heard of a modern steam powered car). Hydrogen has the problem of a complete lack of infrastructure - it would take billions of dollars in investments to get hydrogen stations around the place. Electric cars are for the forseeable future what will replace gasoline.

@HappySqurriel. Its not just environmental organisations researching climate change. Its environmental scientists in general and there is undeniable evidence that warming is happening and a fairly strong consensus that its anthropogenic. There is of course much less of a consensus what the actual effects of this will be.

 

 

Air powered cars are not a prototype, they are going on sale.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/01/worlds-first-air-powered-car-introduced/

The nice thing about diesel, is we can grow it. I like biodiesel the best because the cars perform the best on it. Low maintenance, no batteries and all that stuff.

I don't think we should look at a solution as being the next. I hope all of them thrive, like the PS3, 360 and Wii :p

Oh, and Ghost. I used the Military GPS handhelds. They were several thousand dollars and huge. At the same time, when they became commercially sold, they became 1/4 the size, and cost 1/10th the price. They also had far more features.

The government is good at producing things we would not produce in a commercial market, like alternative fuels when gas cost a $1.00. But if there is a market for something, the government can not remotely compete with commercial companies when it comes to innovation.

 



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TheRealMafoo said:

 

Air powered cars are not a prototype, they are going on sale.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/01/worlds-first-air-powered-car-introduced/


Has there been any public demonstration of that? That seems fantastic, but from a quick search I'm gathering that this car is always going to start being produced "next year".

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

Rath said:

@HappySqurriel. Its not just environmental organisations researching climate change. Its environmental scientists in general and there is undeniable evidence that warming is happening and a fairly strong consensus that its anthropogenic. There is of course much less of a consensus what the actual effects of this will be.

 

 

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/mar/14/climate-panel-on-the-hot-seat/

More than 20 years ago, climate scientists began to raise alarms over the possibility global temperatures were rising due to human activities, such as deforestation and the burning of fossil fuels.

To better understand this potential threat, the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations created the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) in 1988 to provide a "comprehensive, objective, scientific, technical and socioeconomic assessment of human-caused climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation."

IPCC reports have predicted average world temperatures will increase dramatically, leading to the spread of tropical diseases, severe drought, the rapid melting of the world's glaciers and ice caps, and rising sea levels. However, several assessments of the IPCC's work have shown the techniques and methods used to derive its climate predictions are fundamentally flawed.

In a 2001 report, the IPCC published an image commonly referred to as the "hockey stick." This graph showed relatively stable temperatures from A.D. 1000 to 1900, with temperatures rising steeply from 1900 to 2000. The IPCC and public figures, such as former Vice President Al Gore, have used the hockey stick to support the conclusion that human energy use over the last 100 years has caused unprecedented rise global warming.

However, several studies cast doubt on the accuracy of the hockey stick, and in 2006 Congress requested an independent analysis of it. A panel of statisticians chaired by Edward J. Wegman, of George Mason University, found significant problems with the methods of statistical analysis used by the researchers and with the IPCC's peer review process. For example, the researchers who created the hockey stick used the wrong time scale to establish the mean temperature to compare with recorded temperatures of the last century. Because the mean temperature was low, the recent temperature rise seemed unusual and dramatic. This error was not discovered in part because statisticians were never consulted.

Furthermore, the community of specialists in ancient climates from which the peer reviewers were drawn was small and many of them had ties to the original authors — 43 paleoclimatologists had previously coauthored papers with the lead researcher who constructed the hockey stick.

These problems led Mr. Wegman's team to conclude that the idea that the planet is experiencing unprecedented global warming "cannot be supported."

The IPCC published its Fourth Assessment Report in 2007 predicting global warming will lead to widespread catastrophe if not mitigated, yet failed to provide the most basic requirement for effective climate policy: accurate temperature statistics. A number of weaknesses in the measurements include the fact temperatures aren't recorded from large areas of the Earth's surface and many weather stations once in undeveloped areas are now surrounded by buildings, parking lots and other heat-trapping structures resulting in an urban-heat-island effect.

Even using accurate temperature data, sound forecasting methods are required to predict climate change. Over time, forecasting researchers have compiled 140 principles that can be applied to a broad range of disciplines, including science, sociology, economics and politics.

In a recent NCPA study, Kesten Green and J. Scott Armstrong used these principles to audit the climate forecasts in the Fourth Assessment Report. Messrs. Green and Armstrong found the IPCC clearly violated 60 of the 127 principles relevant in assessing the IPCC predictions. Indeed, it could only be clearly established that the IPCC followed 17 of the more than 127 forecasting principles critical to making sound predictions.

A good example of a principle clearly violated is "Make sure forecasts are independent of politics." Politics shapes the IPCC from beginning to end. Legislators, policymakers and/or diplomatic appointees select (or approve) the scientists — at least the lead scientists — who make up the IPCC. In addition, the summary and the final draft of the IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report was written in collaboration with political appointees and subject to their approval.

Sadly, Mr. Green and Mr. Armstrong found no evidence the IPCC was even aware of the vast literature on scientific forecasting methods, much less applied the principles.

The IPCC and its defenders often argue that critics who are not climate scientists are unqualified to judge the validity of their work. However, climate predictions rely on methods, data and evidence from other fields of expertise, including statistical analysis and forecasting. Thus, the work of the IPCC is open to analysis and criticism from other disciplines.

The IPCC's policy recommendations are based on flawed statistical analyses and procedures that violate general forecasting principles. Policymakers should take this into account before enacting laws to counter global warming — which economists point out would have severe economic consequences.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/03/winds-are-dominant-cause-of-greenland-and-west-antarctic-ice-sheet-losses/

Two new studies summarized in a news article in Science magazine point to wind-induced circulation changes in the ocean as the dominant cause of the recent ice losses through the glaciers draining both the Greenland and West Antarctic ice sheets, not ‘global warming.’

The two stuides referred to are:

‘Acceleration of Jakobshavn Isbræ triggered by warm subsurface ocean waters’ by Holland et al, published in Nature Geoscience.

The Abstract states:

Observations over the past decades show a rapid acceleration of several outlet glaciers in Greenland and Antarctica1. One of the largest changes is a sudden switch of Jakobshavn Isbræ, a large outlet glacier feeding a deep-ocean fjord on Greenland’s west coast, from slow thickening to rapid thinning2 in 1997, associated with a doubling in glacier velocity3. Suggested explanations for the speed-up of Jakobshavn Isbræ include increased lubrication of the ice-bedrock interface as more meltwater has drained to the glacier bed during recent warmer summers4 and weakening and break-up of the floating ice tongue that buttressed the glacier5. Here we present hydrographic data that show a sudden increase in subsurface ocean temperature in 1997 along the entire west coast of Greenland, suggesting that the changes in Jakobshavn Isbræ were instead triggered by the arrival of relatively warm water originating from the Irminger Sea near Iceland. We trace these oceanic changes back to changes in the atmospheric circulation in the North Atlantic region. We conclude that the prediction of future rapid dynamic responses of other outlet glaciers to climate change will require an improved understanding of the effect of changes in regional ocean and atmosphere circulation on the delivery of warm subsurface waters to the periphery of the ice sheets.

And:

‘Modelling Circumpolar Deep Water intrusions on the Amundsen Sea continental shelf, Antarctica’ by Thoma et al, published in GRL.

The Abstract states:

Results are presented from an isopycnic coordinate model of ocean circulation in the Amundsen Sea, focusing on the delivery of Circumpolar Deep Water (CDW) to the inner continental shelf around Pine Island Bay. The warmest waters to reach this region are channeled through a submarine trough, accessed via bathymetric irregularities along the shelf break. Temporal variability in the influx of CDW is related to regional wind forcing. Easterly winds over the shelf edge change to westerlies when the Amundsen Sea Low migrates west and south in winter/spring. This drives seasonal on-shelf flow, while inter-annual changes in the wind forcing lead to inflow variability on a decadal timescale. A modelled period of warming following low CDW influx in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s coincides with a period of observed thinning and acceleration of Pine Island Glacier.

I could be unusual, but I think that it is interesting that whenever a unrealistically extreme study is published about Global Warming (or someone makes an insane prediction like the 'North Pole will be ice-free in 2008') it is parroted by every major media outlet and everyone in the world knows about it, and when these studies are discredited (or new theories are developed which don't revolve around fear mongering) everyone is silent.

I also can’t help but notice that the majority of programs designed to eliminate the threat of Global Warming have very little to do with actually reducing worldwide CO2 emissions, and seem to be focused on massive transfers of wealth.

I'm not saying that Global Warming isn't happening, or that man is not having an effect on it, but when people start to understand how heavily manipulated they have been they're going to revolt against the people who have been manipulating them.

 



Nidan said:

Why cant these people see the ET (electic technologies) are the future boom industys. The thing that they are all shying away from is the industry that can drive the worlds economies for the next 20 years.

this...

drilling is fine and necessary for the time being - but as soon as someone makes renewables work they are going to be in the money for a few decades.  why oh why can't people see that our economy is driven by innovation not stagnation?

 



HappySqurriel said:

I'm not saying that Global Warming isn't happening, or that man is not having an effect on it, but when people start to understand how heavily manipulated they have been they're going to revolt against the people who have been manipulating them.

 

Do you think people would care that much? These last few weeks, people and newspapers keep talking about how a bunch of greedy bankers and their bribed politicians screwed up the economy with potentially lasting damage, and I don't see anyone revolting even though their taxes are being used to bail out these same bankers.

Revolt seems to be out of fashion these days. We're mostly complacent.

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

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NJ5 said:
HappySqurriel said:

I'm not saying that Global Warming isn't happening, or that man is not having an effect on it, but when people start to understand how heavily manipulated they have been they're going to revolt against the people who have been manipulating them.

 

Do you think people would care that much? These last few weeks, people and newspapers keep talking about how a bunch of greedy bankers and their bribed politicians screwed up the economy with potentially lasting damage, and I don't see anyone revolting even though their taxes are being used to bail out these same bankers.

Revolt seems to be out of fashion these days. We're mostly complacent.

 

 

Revolt may not be the correct word, but I think I can give another analogy which will demonstrate what will happen ...

Leading up to the war in Iraq there were claims that Iraq was working on developing, and would soon have, weapons of mass destruction. There were lots of people (like myself) who argued that this was unlikely (and my personal argument was the actions of the US government were inconsistent with how they had previously reacted to countries that were developing nuclear weapons). Contrary opinions were silenced by the government and the media and people (generally) supported the war with the reasons they were given.

Being that most of the reasons used to go to war were not true or were heavily manipulated, support for the war has slowly disapeared; this is even though total casulties under the Bush administration is lower than the casulties under the Clinton administration and Iraq is becomming a very stable country.

To what extent do you think that the government could get people to consider a war against Iran or North Korea under the premise that they were developing nuclear weapons to use against friendly/allied nations like Japan and Israel? Even though the threat of these countries developing weapons is far higher, and the probability that they would use these weapons is far higher, the support for any action against these countries would be very small because people have become skeptical about the information they're given.

Now, consider how people will react to any future environmental threat if they think that Global Warming was 'Made Up'?



Unfortunately I'm not very informed about the climate change issue, so I can't really comment on it.

I see your point though... It's sad that in big and public debates, each side often tries to hide what the other side says, resulting in everything we hear being in extremes. There are few well known people/institutions with truly open minds to the debate, and this tendency tends to spread to the general public.

 



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Zucas said:
HappySqurriel said:

This 2% of oil reserves ignores the hundreds of billions of barrels of oil that are in unconventional reserves like shale oil, and the massive quantities of coal that can (easily) be converted into synthetic gasoline and diesel.

 

 

Yes an America does have some of the most reserves of coal. But is it worth the environmental risk? That people are so willing to come into this thread an argue that we could do all these other things to get fossil fuels out of the environment and not consider the effect of it. Especially when we can switch to wind, solar, geothermal, ect.

I mean its just amazing that the first thing people do when they come into this thread is a way to try and get around the statistic.  I mean I think that shows just how much of a problem we really do have with dependence on oil as a whole.  Like addicts in their first meetings at rehab.

The point of this thread is it isn't an argument whether or not we cna continue to use oil like we do. There is no argument to that. The real issue is when will America become energy self sufficient by switching to renewable resources such as solar, wind, geothermal, and tidal/wave.

I have one question about this post, have you ever considered what would happen if all the human required power was generated by your mentioned means?

Solar - currently this would require large amounts of usable energy for growing foods.  Your answer will be in the deserts, but what would be the effect of removing all the heat from the desert?

Wind - no way this is even possible as power generation is so inconsistent.  There have also been some very serious environmental problems caused by large scale wind farms

Geothermal - may not be a big issue, but I am not too sure I would want to know the effects of rapid cooling of the inner planet.  Although that is unlikely to be a concern I don't know how large scale this would need to be to power a single US state.

Tidal/wave - see the same problems caused by the wind power problem

 

As it stands right now, there is very little in the near future that will offer full scale energy production.  Since we are capable of using electricity to do everything, we will eventually need something that can do this with minimal resources.  The most likely things to replace coal/oil is going to be nuclear fission, then most likely fussion power.  The only problem right now is are we going to be able to transition from the fossil fuels to the next step without a world war.

 



largedarryl said:

I have one question about this post, have you ever considered what would happen if all the human required power was generated by your mentioned means?

Solar - currently this would require large amounts of usable energy for growing foods. Your answer will be in the deserts, but what would be the effect of removing all the heat from the desert?

Wind - no way this is even possible as power generation is so inconsistent. There have also been some very serious environmental problems caused by large scale wind farms

Geothermal - may not be a big issue, but I am not too sure I would want to know the effects of rapid cooling of the inner planet. Although that is unlikely to be a concern I don't know how large scale this would need to be to power a single US state.

Tidal/wave - see the same problems caused by the wind power problem

 

As it stands right now, there is very little in the near future that will offer full scale energy production. Since we are capable of using electricity to do everything, we will eventually need something that can do this with minimal resources. The most likely things to replace coal/oil is going to be nuclear fission, then most likely fussion power. The only problem right now is are we going to be able to transition from the fossil fuels to the next step without a world war.

 


I don't think many people advocate putting all the eggs in the same basket. Good energy infrastructure means combining different power sources for reliability. Look at Denmark where 20% of power comes from wind on average, but during high-wind periods this can go up to 80% if I recall correctly.

I have to ask though, what are those very serious environmental problems caused by large scale wind farms that you mentioned?

PS: Obviously any power source (or any big construction in general) will have an environmental impact. I don't see many people claiming renewable energy sources are worse than non-renewable ones though.

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

NJ5 said:
TheRealMafoo said:

 

Air powered cars are not a prototype, they are going on sale.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/01/worlds-first-air-powered-car-introduced/


Has there been any public demonstration of that? That seems fantastic, but from a quick search I'm gathering that this car is always going to start being produced "next year".

 

 

There is a video on the page I linked of a guy driving it. Also I think it's on sale now in India. I heard NZ put in an order for them as well. I doubt we will ever see them on the roads in the US, due to safety restrictions.

Also, I live in Minnesota, so my guess is when it’s 40 below, I don’t want to be in one of these things. Not sure it will even work at those temperatures.

The point really was once it became profitable to look at alternative fuel sources, people smarter than us are going to produce things that we never would have thought possible. :)