yahoo archives only letting me go back to early august. might have to dig some more.

My posts never said "I know a guy that knows a guy who claimed this happened" I stated things I witnessed personally, as well as things that reputable people I know directly stated with the corroboration of several witnesses. Eyewitness accounts are some of the most important arguments in a court of law, especially when verified by multiple witnesses, why are they not viable here?

Heresay is not acceptable in court because it is unreliable.  Stories from people you know are often unreliable because it is subject to bias, memory lapse, and desired outcome.  People always exagerate stories and misrepresent stories, surely you've heard a rumor that has been blown out of proportion.  I had somebody swear to me that a UFO flew over their house and that UFOs were using their electricity to power their space craft (resulting in high electricity bills).  I dont believe this actually happened, it makes more sense to say that a jet or airplane flew over their hosue and a hot summer caused an increase in their electric bill.  However, I'm sure they are still telling this story, and regardless of wether they believe it or not, they get some value out of telling it.

Medical studies have proven that prayer does not have an affect on health.  It use to be that doctors were encouraged to be religious with the patient because it was thought that good moral could lead to better health, however medical evidence shows that this has no effect on health and it is actually determental to a patient's treatment (specifically a family's ability to make decisions) to keep hope alive in the face of unlikely chances.  Yeah, every once in a while a patient with a 95% chance of death survives and goes on to believe that god saved him, but somebody has to win the lottery, and the other 95% of people aren't here to give their testimony.  Thats not to mention the many people who die from easily treatable diseases because they opt for religious healing instead.

Another aspect to consider is doctor error.  A lot of times doctors give the wrong, serious diagnosis and they turn out to be wrong, it looks a lot better to write this off as an unlikely event (or even a miracle) than to say they screwed up and about killed you or caused you unnecessary pain and anguish.

Scientifically speaking, God healing people would violate the conservation of mass and energy.  If you believe God created those laws to govern the universe, why would he violate them?  Also, why would God prove of Himself to a select few but not to everyone, but instead rely on a few to give what society would consider highly unlikely testimonies to everyone else?  The only thing we've proven is that if God exists he has one hell of a sense of humor.

@ The studies on prayer

Why would any higher power give a damn about something as petty as a scientist trying to "disprove trough quantitative means" prayer? Bah, anyway, let me whip out my Divine Comedy and the argument brought up by

Source of Faith: From the word of God.

Proof of the Truth of Faith: The miracles that happened

How do we Know that the Miracles Described Actually Occurred (if we have not seen them and only have scripture as proof, how can we be sure the scripture is true?): Had the miracles not happened, an even greater miracle would be required to explain how Christianity spread so far.

Dante's genius gets me Giddy!

You kinda contradicted yourself there, on the one hand you're saying that miracles can't happen, and then you're asking why doesn't he reveal himself to everyone, well the answer to that may well be that even if God does reveal himself, the person just turns a blind eye, and says it must have happened some other way.

Plus, God may have created the laws that govern the universe, it doesn't mean that he cannot do as he wishes!

Hey, NO DEBATE, to ALL of you! Or the Flaming Flamingo will get very angry.

Why would a higher power give a damn?  We dont care much for the welfare of ants, and the difference between a higher power and humans would be much greater than that.  So whats your argument, if you want God to heal you make sure nobody is watching?

Miracles as proof is not a logical arguent.  First of all, all religions have miracles and they all cant be true.  Perceived 'miracles' are often not miracles at all, just a normal cause and event.  You state the the spread of Christianity is a miracle (ignoring Constantine's attempt to unite a socially falling empire with a single religion), but what about the spread of other religions?  Islam grew at an enormous rate too, should we site that as proof of Islam?  Scientology is also becoming quite popular.

You left out the part about God having a sense of humor, which was I was getting here.

*Picard forehead slap* Some people are just out for conflict.

I suggest you go pick up a copy of The Divine Comedy, it's a GREAT read from many point of views. Your time is better spent reading than arguing on the internet.

Edit: And for that matter, arguing over a vintage 1300 Poem's secondary discussion written by the translator.

Eyewitness accounts are acceptable, I didn't state any heresay at all. I stated several things I've personally witnessed, as well as eyewitness accounts of others. Stories from people I know could be considered biased, except for the fact that several other EYEWITNESSES gave the exact same testimony on different days without the others present.

If you are going to state what studies have shown regarding prayer, please post links to these studies, otherwise you are more guilty of 'heresay' than you claim I am. For any study you find to support your point of view, I can find many to support mine, so what's the point?

Doctor error can not possibly account for all recorded miracles, nor can it account for all the things I've witnessed personally.

Speaking about what God can and can't do from the limited human perspective is both arrogant and illogical. This would be like a 5-year-old saying that it's impossible for an adult to do complex math equations because they don't make sense to him. Trying to rationalize a God who is outside our perception of time and space is impossible. If indeed he created the laws of nature, he would have to live outside of them in order to create them in the first place. If, then, he lives outside of those constraints, it makes perfect sense that what limits us (those that live inside physical laws and constraints) would not limit Him. Therefore we cannot rationalize what God (theoretical or real) can do based upon our limits or the limits of the physical world.

The gift of healing is available to us, but has to be accepted by faith. I am not in a position to speak for God on why some are healed and some are not, nor are you.

Giving yourself a logical way to denounce all miracles regardless of proof is a very convenient way to avoid the issue. This is basically what you've done.