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luinil said:
Also I fail to how a group of people as large as the Israelites were could eat something provided to them by a guy who's only trick is slight of hand. You can't eat or drink slight of hand. You can eat manna and drink water. Both of which were supernaturally provided to them daily, in the desert I might add. You can't pick stuff off the desert floor every morning for 40 yearsand eat it and declare that it is great! You are either insane or eating sand... Though they did get tired of the heavenly bread after a while and grumbled again, at which time no amount of slight of hand can make birds land in your camp where you can catch them and eat them. It just doesn't happen.


And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Yet one plague more will I bring upon Pharaoh, and upon Egypt; afterwards he will let you go hence; when he shall let you go, he shall surely thrust you out hence altogether.  Speak now in the ears of the people, and let them ask every man of his neighbour, and every woman of her neighbour, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold.'  And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians. Moreover the man Moses was very great in the land of Egypt, in the sight of Pharaoh's servants, and in the sight of the people.

Its was easy for Moses, a very popular leader and a member of the royal family, to provide for the Hebrews when he had a huge supply of gold to buy resources with.  Thats not to mention that there were nomads living in the desert at this time, with wells, settlements, and not to mention a huge trade route from Egypt to Asia.



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ManusJustus said:
luinil said:

Moses was not a good public speaker and was reluctant to do God's bidding.

Moses was a well respected Egyptian, he was even adopted into the Egyptian Royal family.

When reading Exodus with an open mind, it makes more sense to me to think as Moses as a rebellious leader.  He obvioulsy knew how to be a good speaker, he led an army of Hebrews and consulted with the pharoah on many occasions.  Moses also knew the Egyptian terrain, outsmarting the pharoah by moving his followers across a stretch of the Red Sea (or Reed Sea, depending on translation) that is only passable during low tide.

He was found in a wicker basket by the Wife of the Pharoah at the time when Pharoah send a command to kill all male children of the Jews under the age of 2. Now tell me that is not Divine Providence. Moses ran away after he saw an Egyptian beating a slave because he killed the man and hid his body in the sand.

In shame and fearing for his life, he fled and survived the desert and lived with some goat herders from Ethiopia (I think). Married one of them, you would think that he would not want to come back, since he has no reason to. I mean the guy is living a simple life with a wife and not troubled by the rule of the Pharoah.

Why did he go back? God commanded him to. Moses said he was slow of tongue (bad speaker) and God said he would help him by sending his brother to aid him in speaking. Makes no sense for this man who escaped to go back and challenge the established leadership of Egypt to free a bunch of slaves if he was not either one of them or commanded by God.

The people crossed on dry land, and later during the celebration of the crossing (and destruction of Pharoah's army) of the Red Sea, they sing about how God allowed them to pass through.

Exodus 15

 8 By the blast of your nostrils
       the waters piled up.
       The surging waters stood firm like a wall;
       the deep waters congealed in the heart of the sea.

 9 "The enemy boasted,
       'I will pursue, I will overtake them.
       I will divide the spoils;
       I will gorge myself on them.
       I will draw my sword
       and my hand will destroy them.'

 10 But you blew with your breath,
       and the sea covered them.
       They sank like lead
       in the mighty waters.

Here is the account of the crossing of the Red Sea.

Exodus 14.

 21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and all that night the LORD drove the sea back with a strong east wind and turned it into dry land. The waters were divided, 22 and the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left.

 23 The Egyptians pursued them, and all Pharaoh's horses and chariots and horsemen followed them into the sea. 24 During the last watch of the night the LORD looked down from the pillar of fire and cloud at the Egyptian army and threw it into confusion. 25 He made the wheels of their chariots come off [b] so that they had difficulty driving. And the Egyptians said, "Let's get away from the Israelites! The LORD is fighting for them against Egypt."

 26 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand over the sea so that the waters may flow back over the Egyptians and their chariots and horsemen." 27 Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and at daybreak the sea went back to its place. The Egyptians were fleeing toward [c] it, and the LORD swept them into the sea. 28 The water flowed back and covered the chariots and horsemen—the entire army of Pharaoh that had followed the Israelites into the sea. Not one of them survived.

Why would they sing about "walls of water" if it had just been low tide?



The most important point we are all missing here is that if every first born child in Egypt, numbering hundreds of thouands of children, was killed, somebody other than the Hebrews would have bothered to mention it.

"Makes no sense for this man who escaped to go back and challenge the established leadership of Egypt to free a bunch of slaves if he was not either one of them or commanded by God."

It makes perfect sense.  Moses was a member of the royal family and a great man in the land of Egypt, as the Bible says.  He goes back to challenge the leadership in Egypt just as so many other rebels have challenged the leadership of a nation.



ManusJustus said:
luinil said:
Also I fail to how a group of people as large as the Israelites were could eat something provided to them by a guy who's only trick is slight of hand. You can't eat or drink slight of hand. You can eat manna and drink water. Both of which were supernaturally provided to them daily, in the desert I might add. You can't pick stuff off the desert floor every morning for 40 yearsand eat it and declare that it is great! You are either insane or eating sand... Though they did get tired of the heavenly bread after a while and grumbled again, at which time no amount of slight of hand can make birds land in your camp where you can catch them and eat them. It just doesn't happen.


And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Yet one plague more will I bring upon Pharaoh, and upon Egypt; afterwards he will let you go hence; when he shall let you go, he shall surely thrust you out hence altogether.  Speak now in the ears of the people, and let them ask every man of his neighbour, and every woman of her neighbour, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold.'  And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians. Moreover the man Moses was very great in the land of Egypt, in the sight of Pharaoh's servants, and in the sight of the people.

Its was easy for Moses, a very popular leader and a member of the royal family, to provide for the Hebrews when he had a huge supply of gold to buy resources with.  Thats not to mention that there were nomads living in the desert at this time, with wells, settlements, and not to mention a huge trade route from Egypt to Asia.

You are not reading what they did with that gold are you? They melted it down and forced all of the people who rebelled against God to drink it. They probably had some left over, but to think that they could use the wells of other places "towns" to let over 40,000 people drink? I don't buy it for one second.

ManusJustus said:

The most important point we are all missing here is that if every first born child in Egypt, numbering hundreds of thouands of children, was killed, somebody other than the Hebrews would have bothered to mention it.

Perhaps they buried it with the Pharoah. It would be a shame to the nation and hoped to be forgotten. After all the Pharoah died in the Red Sea too.



So its impossible that the people who wrote the Bible could have exagerrated at all? The Hebrews could of had an army of several thousand, and if thats true then their feats aren't that spectacular. If they had an army of 40,000 thats still smaller than the Egyptian army that marched back and forth through the same desert at this time. So they had enough gold to supply a huge army for a long period time but they drank it all, I dont think I'm the only one not buying that one.

You dont think that other people in the world would have heard about this? Egypt was a major trader in the Middle East, it wouldnt take much for word to spread via trader or traveler to other nations. One would have to give the Egyptians credit for covering up both politically and archeologically the death of hundreds of thousands of children at once, but we would also have to comment on the carelessness of foriegn leaders, scribes, and the general population for not bothering to mention it in their texts and stories.

If every first born child in Iran was killed by some astounding miracle, I'm sure we in America find out about it and bother to record it.



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We in America would find out about it when a Nuclear bomb hits us and Israel. Plus we have the interwebz.

They had scrolls, which we have not found all of I am sure. History can be lost. Archeology can be tricky, until it is found, it doesn't exist. How do you think the Pyramids were built? There are no definite answers to that but we have ideas. If we don't know how they built the pyramids, perhaps there are other things we don't know?



luinil said:
We in America would find out about it when a Nuclear bomb hits us and Israel. Plus we have the interwebz.

They had scrolls, which we have not found all of I am sure. History can be lost. Archeology can be tricky, until it is found, it doesn't exist. How do you think the Pyramids were built? There are no definite answers to that but we have ideas. If we don't know how they built the pyramids, perhaps there are other things we don't know?

 

The thing is... we do know how they built them, we know very well actually.



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Source? Last I heard people were theorizing aliens. The Hebrew slaves built them imo.



vlad321 said:
Timmah! said:
In the same way that a being living in a 2-dimensional world could not possibly explain a 3-dimensional being with their own science and understanding (nor could they prove or disprove the existence of a 3-dimensional being from their perspective), our understanding of our own physical, 3-dimensional world cannot explain, prove, or disprove the existence of God, a being that lives in a world of higher dimensions (outside time). We can make assumptions of the existence of God based on our limited understanding, but those assumptions are very subjective to our own opinions and interpretation of facts and the world around us.

Because of this, the only real, solid evidence that one can have of the existence of God is personal experiences, and a living relationship with Him- To those of you who don't have these personal experiences, it seems foolish to believe in something you can't see, because you haven't experienced him; to those of us who have experienced God's power, witnessed his intervention, and have a living relationship with him, it seems foolish to live without that. Arguments seldom convince nonbelievers of the existence of God.

The only way to convince others is for us as the Church of Jesus to begin to live in the love and power that Jesus demonstrated for us through His life, and use our lives as proof that God is alive and well. Until the Church is willing to step out of dead religion, and back into a living, powerful relationship with our creator, we have no power to convince people of the existence and love of God.

 Please point me to the 2D universe so we can go be their gods. Didn't think you could.

 

 

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luinil said:
We in America would find out about it when a Nuclear bomb hits us and Israel. Plus we have the interwebz.

They had scrolls, which we have not found all of I am sure. History can be lost. Archeology can be tricky, until it is found, it doesn't exist. How do you think the Pyramids were built? There are no definite answers to that but we have ideas. If we don't know how they built the pyramids, perhaps there are other things we don't know?

 

The ancients knew what was going on too.  Where else do you think we get our history from?  They wrote it down temples, in tombs, in scribes, and they told it orally.  Whenver you read or learn about history, think about how you got all this infornmation.

Have you heard of the Amarna Letters?                                                                         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarna_letters

They are correspondence from the Egyptian pharoah to other rules throughout the world.  Egyptians knew what was going on elsewhere, and everybody else knew what was going on in Egypt.  If it wasn't letters and political correspondence, it was travelers and traders spreading information, even though I would imagine they would tend to exagerrate.

The Amarna Letters even mention the Habiru, which historians believe refers to the Hebrews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

Habiru was the name given by various Egyptian, Summerian, Akadian, Hittite, Mitanni, and Ugaritic sources.  These Habiru are variously described as nomadic or semi-nomadic, rebels, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, and bowmen, servants, slaves, migrant laborers.

An accurate description, considering that the Hebrews invaded and conquered what we know today as Israel as well as from their own stories of themselves, which doesnt take much input to consider exagerrated.

Even if you dont believe the Habiru are Hebrew, why should anyone believe that the ancient world made such detailed observations of the world around them but didn't even bother to mention the Nile flowing red with Blood, hundreds of thousands of children dying in Egypt, and so forth?