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Forums - General - PoliCHARTZ - Thread of U.S. Politics & the Presidential Election

Final-Fan on 08 October 2008
Jackson50 said:
Final-Fan said:
We decided that the American public wanted to stop genocide even if it didn't directly affect us, and did so. Without, if I recall correctly, losing one American life in combat.

I guarantee that interventions like that make the world respect the USA more, and therefore help our diplomatic efforts in things that DO affect us. And that's ignoring potential indirect effects of such conflicts on the world at large and therefore the US.

Anyway, by "smart" I meant "effective".

I also think you overestimate how much the world respected us for that intervention. There were nations other than Russia and China opposed to our actions. I believe the Italians and Greeks were also staunchly opposed to it. It was not America the beneficent coming to save the day. No, it was America the meddlesome interjecting its will on those who did not seek it. 

If what we wanted to stop was genocide, then our goals were wrong from the beginning. There was no genocide in Kosovo. There may have been a brutal civil war with atrocities committed by both sides, but it was not a genocide. I find it odd that the KLA was originally considered a terrorist group, or a group that committed terrorist attacks (as certain nations deemed them), but was later trained by the US. We chose to support a group that systematically killed ethnic Serbs and Roma. It is unfortunate that the US once again interjected itself into a civil war that it had no interest in.

Well, I do concede that a cursory search reveals little evidence for genocide.  My imperfect memory probably conflated mass atrocities with suspected (at the time at least) genocide. 

That same cursory research shows that although Italy was critical of NATO involvement, it wasn't strong enough to stop itself from being the "main" staging ground for land-based air attacks.  And Greece did object but again not so strongly that they didn't involve themselves in the conflict as well. 

As for the KLA, those allegations have been made but there is "no reliable evidence [...] to substantiate the allegations."  I do not dispute, however, that the KLA was an unsavory ally, doing assassinations and kidnappings etc. 

In any case, even supposing that my example is a bad one, it doesn't mean that there are no good ones.  And as for "America the meddlesome interjecting its will on those who did not seek it", I think that the Kosovars were pretty happy to get NATO's help. 



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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Jackson50 on 08 October 2008

The Kosovars may have welcomed it, but the Serbs who were fighting the separatist forces did not welcome it. That is why interjecting ourselves in a civil war was a bad idea. Whose side was the right side? We had no idea.  



madskillz on 08 October 2008
fkusumot said:
madskillz said:
fkusumot said:

No knockout blow tonight. Maybe next time.

I'm basing my opinion on what pundits stated (and Yoda) - he needed a knockout blow. With less than a month to go, he needed a homer and definitely could have used a grandslam. He got neither. AP had called it a few weeks ago - and said he was at a political dead-end. With early voting starting, a huge voter drive that tends to favor Dems and this sagging economy and Wall St. woes, this debate had to stop the bleeding. He didn't. He's got a chest wound and thought a pinkie Band-Aid to it.

The biggest thing? McCain was very favored in this kind of debate - the town hall format - but Obama own3d him. Don't believe just me - look at the polls.

Apparently someone disagrees with you:

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) Both campaigns have declared themselves the winner of last night's presidential debate. Obama's campaign manager called John McCain "angry" and says he was all over the place. But a McCain backer, Senator Lindsey Graham, sees it differently, saying McCain "whipped" Obama last night.

 

That is why I think you totally rock!

I miss ABQ, man. Ike nearly ripped us a new one!!!!

 



Final-Fan on 09 October 2008
Jackson50 said:
The Kosovars may have welcomed it, but the Serbs who were fighting the separatist forces did not welcome it. That is why interjecting ourselves in a civil war was a bad idea. Whose side was the right side? We had no idea.  

Clearly this Kosovo back-and-forth could go on and on, but I'd rather not distract from the topic any more than we already have.  I don't concede that we were wrong to go into Kosovo but I want to drop it.  All I meant by the final remark was to say that the implication that intervention was universally resented is just not true. And if you didn't mean to imply that, then never mind.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

The Ghost of RubangB on 09 October 2008
halogamer1989 said:

Jackson: I was thinking the same thing. However, from what I gather if we do nothing the homeless population will make the Bay area look pathetic.

 

As a Bay Area resident, what the fuck?

 



twitter.com/evaneldeneller

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Final-Fan on 09 October 2008
The Ghost of RubangB said:
halogamer1989 said:
Jackson: I was thinking the same thing. However, from what I gather if we do nothing the homeless population will make the Bay area look pathetic.
As a Bay Area resident, what the fuck?

Hmm, since it's bad to be "pathetic" then I presume he believes that the crisis will make everywhere else improve, or that only the Bay area will get worse.  Or perhaps homeless people are a good thing. 

[edit:  Are you sure you're both talking about the same Bay area?]



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

The Ghost of RubangB on 09 October 2008

I have no idea.



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rocketpig on 09 October 2008

I think he's trying to say that the Bay area has a large homeless population... Which they do, because the governments in the area treat the homeless quite well by the rest of the country's standards.

A well-treated homeless person is still a homeless person, which is what I think HaloGamer is trying to get at.

There's a lot of supposition going on in this post. For all I know, HaloGamer is really advocating the death and consumption of all Bay area homeless people.

Which, actually, is an interesting solution once you get past the initial repulsion of cannibalism.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

fkusumot on 09 October 2008


^^^ Fava Bean effect confirmed. ^^^



I Blame Wii Fit!

Final-Fan on 09 October 2008

Amusing, but that graph indicates that McCain is also affecting the market. (Day 5)



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!