By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - Obama... Man Were We All Fooled...

steven787 said:
Kasz216 said:
steven787 said:
Kasz216 said:
akuma587 said:
TheRealMafoo said:

 

You know you come across as an elitist right? With this, and your '"potential' equality in our society" comment. If I am only potential equal to you, I guess that makes me less they you in reality? 

Starting life in different places is far different then equality.

I don't have time for a long reply to this, but I will reply to it. I have some comments about medical care, and one thing that would make it very easy to reduce cost by 90%.

I am just saying that many people are not as lucky as you OR me.  They just don't have the opportunity to move upwards in society or even go to college simply because their financial situation is too poor.

 Everyone has an oppurtunity to move upwards.  Outside of people with huge physical or mental disabilties.

 

 

I'm about to say something.  I don't live this way but I just want to put it out there.

Some people don't want to "move up", some people aren't able to because of intelligence, disability, or a whole life of subpar education, parenting, community support, and bias. They aren't lazy.  They want to work 38-50 hours a week, have a family, and be able to feed, clothe, and shelter there family by putting in a good week.

It's easy (and cool) to say in America, "Why should I pay for their health care?" or "They should pull themselves up."

But the hard working mentality of Americans poorest (as compared to the poor in other industrialized nations) is one of the elements that keeps the oppurtunity to start a business or "move up" alive.

Raising the minimum wage to something like $9/hour and making sure every one can afford medical care is not an outrageous request and it won't kill the country.  If anything by raising minimum wage (slightly like that so it won't cause too much inflation) they will still be in the income range where it is impossible to save and have a family, so it will be good for the economy as they'll be buying more.

I'll finish by saying, again, that standard or living is not just income.

Raising the minmium wage to $9 an hour would just raise the price of everything by about the same amount the minimium wage was raised.

That's not slight enough... since in big companies a dollar an hour REALLY adds up. 

You also don't really seem to grasp my point.  As I said I'm for Government run healthcare or a similar option.

The options people like Obama talk about though aren't good ones.  They're worse then what we have now.  Treating health insurance like car insurance.  Fining people if they don't have the insurance when they're sick. 

Give me a full non-insurance tax run program... rather then a plan that's going to make things worse.

However said program should be taken from the people equally, treating everyone the same.  By a broad flat tax of some kind.(accounting for cost of living adjusted by county.) 

Treating people equally.

 

That's just not true.  The bottom 5% will not cause inflation at the same rate of their wage increase.

If everybody received an increase, then inflation would grow at the same rate.

Flat tax would be disasterous.

Minimum ~13520 - 15% = 11492/yr or 221/wk or 957/month.

$20,000 - 15%= 17000/yr or 326/wk, 1416/month.

$50,000 - 15%= 42500/yr or 817 wk or 3541/month.

What happens then.   Two things are possible, 1) government doesn't have enough money or 2) the poor can't afford to live.

Which is why the government needs to be cut back, and all of the wastefull government spending needs to be stopped. 

A Flat tax could work... but we'd need to get rid of completely useless branches of the government to do so.  The government's problem is that it doesn't know how to manage it's money and just throws money everywhere and wastes it because it can, knowing that the Democrats and Neo-Cons are always ready to raise taxes to give it more money to spend.

Look at the VA Health Services.  That's a Government Healthcare program done right.  With similar implemation like that... and a cut to wasteful spending you could have a flat, fair tax.

Also... in your calculations you are ignoring that cost of livivng would be taken out of such a tax.  The rich would still be paying a higher percentage of their income... however they would be paying the same amount when you include the tax credit for cost of living.

Instead of the current system where people are taxed a higher percentage soley because they make more money. (Not even accounting for cost of living a lot of the time.)

 



Around the Network
Kasz216 said:

Which is why the government needs to be cut back, and all of the wastefull government spending needs to be stopped. 

A Flat tax could work... but we'd need to get rid of completely useless branches of the government to do so.  The government's problem is that it doesn't know how to manage it's money and just throws money everywhere and wastes it because it can, knowing that the Democrats and Neo-Cons are always ready to raise taxes to give it more money to spend.

Look at the VA Health Services.  That's a Government Healthcare program done right.  With similar implemation like that... and a cut to wasteful spending you could have a flat, fair tax.

Also... in your calculations you are ignoring that cost of livivng would be taken out of such a tax.  The rich would still be paying a higher percentage of their income... however they would be paying the same amount when you include the tax credit for cost of living.

Instead of the current system where people are taxed a higher percentage soley because they make more money. (Not even accounting for cost of living a lot of the time.)

 

First, what government program do we need to get rid of, that is useless?  The FDA?  The FTC? (Edit: it's just like the vide in my sig.)

Stopped reading at the second bolded part.  No more of this thread for me.



I would cite regulation, but I know you will simply ignore it.

steven787 said:

 

That's just not true.  The bottom 5% will not cause inflation at the same rate of their wage increase.

If everybody received an increase, then inflation would grow close to the same rate but still noot equal because some people would be saving more or investing in resources abroad (basically removing the money from circulation).

Flat tax would be disasterous.

Minimum ~13520 - 15% = 11492/yr or 221/wk or 957/month before taking out social security.

$20,000 - 15%= 17000/yr or 326/wk, 1416/month.

$50,000 - 15%= 42500/yr or 817 wk or 3541/month.

What happens then.   Two things are possible, 1) government doesn't have enough money or 2) the poor can't afford to live.

Personally, I think inflation is actually a small problem compared to the much worse side effect of youth unemployment ...

For the most part, people who earn the minimum wage (without commissions or tips) are primarily young people between the age of 14 and 24 who have little or no experience; these jobs tend to be quite awful but provide these young people with the necessary experience to get a better job, and quite often provide the income needed to get a higher education. Now, most of these young people are doing jobs which are (realistically) not worth $10 per hour and if the minimum wage is raised many would find themself out of a job.

This can result in the cycle of people being unable to find a job because they have no experience, and being unable to get experience because they can't get a job.



Clobbergirl22 said:

Guys...leave the op alone. Most people on this site are ridiculously biased democrats. It's hypocricy to gang up on a republican leaning individual when he was open-minded about Obama to begin with. Allow a little variety in the political debate or else it becomes a dictatorship with only one candidate to choose from.

Why do we have to be biased dems? I grew up in the military, but mostly Southern states. When I was old enough to understand things was in the middle of Reagan's regime. I saw unemployed folks, I saw him really dissing minorities and doing nada to help them improve. I'm not talking about handouts, but the average Anglo never had to worry about drive-bys, drugs in their neighborhood or barrios. And then, to top it off, Guilani was shooting fools first and asking questions later when he was Mayor of NY.

Sadly, the GOP convention was a reflection of who they are. They aren't diverse. The Dems really try harder than the GOP to help out the less fortunate. I voted twice for Clinton and I can tell you, I was making as much then as I made just last year. Yeah, sad huh? I had more money in my pocket, gas was cheaper and the GOP was steadily complaining.

The party in power for the last 8 years has had on its watch:

9/11

Financial meltdown not seen since the days of the great depression

Record unemployment

Vast home foreclosures, contributing to the economic plunge

Health care costs that just keep soaring (why am I paying $100 for an inhaler when I can go to Mexico or Canada and get it for $5?!)

And folks are like 'I want to choose my own doctor.' Fine. Do your thing. When I was growing up in the military, everyone got the same service, be it private or full bird colonel. And I so miss it now. We are paying $350 a month for health care, and they are complaining about pre-existing conditions. France, Canada and even the UK have it right with health care.

Something needs to be done. No, it won't happen overnight, but at least Obama is a step in that direction. I don't care if it's an alien or a mule giving me care - as long as they know what they are doing, I could care less about who is giving me care.

8 is enough. There's no need to change tactics if you get elected and your party is in charge. Nope, no reason - just lies. And the next 4 years, they'll harp on change takes time. Syke. Clinton reversed course in his 8 years - and with Clinton folks helping O, he can do the same.

Check the numbers with Bush 2 vs. Clinton's ending numbers. Clinton own3d Bush big time.

 



"Record unemployment"
The US record for unemployment was in 1933. The unemployment rate was 24.9%. After that crazy blog you posted the other day...I hoped you would learn by now.

I notice some people supporting the minimum wage in here, and I agree it sounds like a good idea. The only problem I have with it, however, is that it prices people out of the labor force leading to higher unemployment.



Around the Network
steven787 said:
Kasz216 said:

Which is why the government needs to be cut back, and all of the wastefull government spending needs to be stopped. 

A Flat tax could work... but we'd need to get rid of completely useless branches of the government to do so.  The government's problem is that it doesn't know how to manage it's money and just throws money everywhere and wastes it because it can, knowing that the Democrats and Neo-Cons are always ready to raise taxes to give it more money to spend.

Look at the VA Health Services.  That's a Government Healthcare program done right.  With similar implemation like that... and a cut to wasteful spending you could have a flat, fair tax.

Also... in your calculations you are ignoring that cost of livivng would be taken out of such a tax.  The rich would still be paying a higher percentage of their income... however they would be paying the same amount when you include the tax credit for cost of living.

Instead of the current system where people are taxed a higher percentage soley because they make more money. (Not even accounting for cost of living a lot of the time.)

 

First, what government program do we need to get rid of, that is useless?  The FDA?  The FTC? (Edit: it's just like the vide in my sig.)

Stopped reading at the second bolded part.  No more of this thread for me.

No I like the FDA and FTC.

I can name a bunch, though the things McCain will stop?

Earmarks, Ethanol Subsidaries and making it harder to raise taxes... meaning things will HAVE to be cut when the government wants to get stuff done.

Other things?  Department of Education, Homeland Security, War on Drugs,  Women's Education Equality Act. (Probably, i'm pretty sure more women go on to higher education then men.), Federal Money to Abstinence Only programs, Faith based initatives, other farm subsidaries....



Clobbergirl22 said:

Guys...leave the op alone. Most people on this site are ridiculously biased democrats. It's hypocricy to gang up on a republican leaning individual when he was open-minded about Obama to begin with. Allow a little variety in the political debate or else it becomes a dictatorship with only one candidate to choose from.

Open-minded and bigjon should never go in the same sentence unless there is a "not" between them.  Look at his post history.  He is one of the most extreme people on this website.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

My largest problem with the argument of government not having the right to tax on an incremental scale depending on wages is simply because how we value certain jobs.

As a teacher I too have worked very hard to get where I am, and I continue to work hard on a daily basis. Is there a huge paycheck waiting for me? Do I need extra tax dollars to help sustain my lifestyle? Certainly not.

I didn't go into teaching for the money as I'm sure there are many people who get paid less (or more for that matter) than myself that didn't go into their careers for the money.

I just don't see the fairness that someone may not be able to afford health care simply for wishing to pursue a certain career path.

I know that it may seem like I'm moreso complaining about free market and capitalism than I am about taxes, but that isn't what I'm trying to get across here. I'm just challenging what it means to be treated equally (I suppose I'm more of an equal opportunity guy rather than an equal treatment one)

I think we can all agree that working hard as a CEO for Nokia is not necessarily any more valuable than working hard as a grade 3 teacher (You can't really put them on the same scale as they require different things from each individual). How hard you work doesn't necessarily determine your outcome. But yet, we a rewarded very differently (don't get me wrong, the rewards of being a teacher, to me, is far more fulfilling to me than any monetary reward).

I see taxes as an attempt to make up for these inequalities. I know, I know, trying to equate an inequality with another inequality doesn't make it right, but it does make it better overall for society as opposed to leaving the capitalist society deem what professions are important or unimportant. At least I think it does.

I think it's necessary for government to regulate this inequality to a certain extent. Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not suggesting communism where wages should be controlled, just some progressive taxing!

Note: Apologies for my poorly written argument. It's far past my bedtime... only half awake *yawn*



My 1,000th post will say!

I Blame Wii Fit!!!



"Let justice be done though the heavens fall." - Jim Garrison

"Ask not your horse, if ye should ride into battle" - myself

^Ding?



I would cite regulation, but I know you will simply ignore it.