From the moment that you started talking about spirits.

Dontcha love when people expect to have their view respected, but then crap all over yours and disrespect any form of belief you might hold?

I didn't disrespect anyone's beliefs, I merely stated that assuming a "spirit" can exist before consciousness amounts to throwing science out the window. The same science which allows the debate to exist.

While I would posit that it doesn't, that's a whole 'nother argument.

EDIT: And in any event, you would agree that my arguments against other positions don't bring in religion, yes?

I don't get it. You said you were giving a religious answer and even apologized for it. How am I contradicting what you said?

I'm saying that I don't think science and religion are necessarily exculusive.  Also, I was apologizing for what would probably be perceived as an annoying response.

If they aren't mutually exclusive, you should be able to explain what the "spirit" you were referring to is, and how it can exist before consciousness. That's the answer I was looking for when I replied to your post.

Its better worded that way. When we start throwing words like "magically" and other sorts of words that relate to fantasy realms, the comment becomes jagged. A lot of things occur before consciousness. Remember unconscious people (ie. coma) are still very much alive, no? Body parts are formed, the nucleus center of the brain is formed, but it is not conscious of itself or its surroundings. It does not quite know what it is, or where it is. You might define it as a subconscious state, much like a deep sleep in the REM stages. We could very easily be in danger in the conscious world, but completely unconscious to the fact as we dream about clowns with sharp teeth or being stuck in the next Ubisoft Petz game. (I'll take the prior to the latter!)

In regards to the overall pro-life/pro-choice, I think that either way is unfortunate. I feel that destroying a life because of reasons other than rape is bad, but bringing a child into the world and abusing/mistreating it is bad also. I also believe that children are the most terminal STD known to mankind =D

I wrote "magically" because there was no explanation at all of how this "spirit" thing could exist before consciousness.

BTW, I'm talking about consciousness in a quite broad way, subconscious included. That's why I said that it's hard to define the moment when consciousness begins, and that it's easier to point at some cases where it can't exist (for example, when no brain activity is present). Further advances in scientific knowledge could tell us even more about the pre-requisites for consciousness.

I see.  From my understanding of the Bible, it's a non-physical entity that can make choices, and can exist apart from a physical body.