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Forums - Gaming - Brilliant Sean Mastrom's blog entry

Sky Render said:
You're not making a very good image for yourself in this thread at all, Squilliam. Responding to a well-worded and carefully considered explanation of what true genius entails, as well as the pitfalls of relying on knowledge over clarity, with nothing more than "Bull..." suggests only that you have no alternative explanation to offer. Indeed, it suggests that you didn't even read what was written.

Ok then, "your assertion fails because its based on rhetoric"

There, 7 words.

"Some believe genius is being able to see what others do not. But true genius is being able to explain that which others don't see to them in a way that they understand and that doesn't offend them. Malstrom is decidedly a genius in that regard, which is more than I can say for the sorts who say "you're wrong", rant on about theories and rules, utilize statistics in place of qualitative arguments, and then simply refuse to clarify in a way that uninformed individuals on the subject would understand.

Some hide behind statistics, theories, and equations to conceal their actual capabilities. They turn to their knowledge to make them look smart in the presence of the uninformed, and it's all about them. But some of us opt to go the other way, and reveal what we know to the world so others can appreciate it, admitting our shortcomings as we go and making sure that our listeners understand what we say and that they actually care. To those of us like that, it's not about what we know, it's about what our listeners want to know"

The bolded - Your claim that Malstrom is a genius is not supported by the underlined rhetoric.

 

 



Tease.

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Squilliam said:

Fine if you don't like my quick and dirty analysis how bout a more thourough database.

302 games in the database The number of games in the American database to prevent repeats. ( Conservative assumption because the games not included would have sold poorly anyway, the bias from this assumption further supports my point.)

142,000,000 games sold.

60 games comprise the top 20% (rounding down)

42 million sellers + 18 non million sellers. (94.6+14.8 = 109.4 million games sold comprise the top 20%)

The top 20% of games have therefore sold 77% of the total.

Therefore my assertion that 20% of games make 80% of revenue holds true.

Furthermore it is also well known that the top selling games hold their prices higher for longer and that most games sell in the first few weeks after the release (front loaded) These two factors further support my statement that 20% of games make 80% of the revenue.

Now consider that software development is a fixed cost once the game is released to the public with very little in terms of variable costs. So you see my assertion that 80% of profit goes to 20% of games is probably wrong, its closer to 90% actually. Since only about a 3rd of games actually break even.

This is typical of creative industries. Bookes/Movies/Games/Music all share the model where the lions share of actual profits go to very few endeavers. This would be an atypical model for other industries. This is not to say that profit cannot be found in smaller niches, what im saying is that most of the "total" profit goes to very few works.

The same would hold true of the software market on the Wii or PS3 or DS or PSP.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I give up dude.

THE DATABASE IS FULL OF NON RELEASED GAMES AND DUPLICATES. that is why Bayonetta, Blue Dragon 2 and Halo wars got 0 sales on all territories.



Satan said:

"You are for ever angry, all you care about is intelligence, but I repeat again that I would give away all this superstellar life, all the ranks and honours, simply to be transformed into the soul of a merchant's wife weighing eighteen stone and set candles at God's shrine."

Once again, you prove no comprehension of what I have said. All you have highlighted is that your personal beliefs do not align with one single thing I said, and that you have thus discounted everything else I have said in the process simply because of that disagreement. Instead of considering why I said that, you have assumed that since you feel it does not apply to him, it must not be true. Why are you making such an illogical assumption?



Sky Render - Sanity is for the weak.

ItsaMii said:
Squilliam said:

Fine if you don't like my quick and dirty analysis how bout a more thourough database.

302 games in the database The number of games in the American database to prevent repeats. ( Conservative assumption because the games not included would have sold poorly anyway, the bias from this assumption further supports my point.)

142,000,000 games sold.

60 games comprise the top 20% (rounding down)

42 million sellers + 18 non million sellers. (94.6+14.8 = 109.4 million games sold comprise the top 20%)

The top 20% of games have therefore sold 77% of the total.

Therefore my assertion that 20% of games make 80% of revenue holds true.

Furthermore it is also well known that the top selling games hold their prices higher for longer and that most games sell in the first few weeks after the release (front loaded) These two factors further support my statement that 20% of games make 80% of the revenue.

Now consider that software development is a fixed cost once the game is released to the public with very little in terms of variable costs. So you see my assertion that 80% of profit goes to 20% of games is probably wrong, its closer to 90% actually. Since only about a 3rd of games actually break even.

This is typical of creative industries. Bookes/Movies/Games/Music all share the model where the lions share of actual profits go to very few endeavers. This would be an atypical model for other industries. This is not to say that profit cannot be found in smaller niches, what im saying is that most of the "total" profit goes to very few works.

The same would hold true of the software market on the Wii or PS3 or DS or PSP.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I give up dude. I hate being arrogant, I hate telling others that they are not worth my time. You are really testing my patience, so I will give just one advice: cool your head down, reread your posts and try checking your arguments at least 3 times before you post. So here it goes:

THE DATABASE IS FULL OF NON RELEASED GAMES AND DUPLICATES. that is why Bayonetta, Blue Dragon 2 and Halo wasrs got 0 sales on all territories.

It doesn't matter if its got duplicates. Theres always going to be an element of fudge when using Vgchartz numbers because there are flaws in the database. It also doesn't matter if its 20% of games making 70% of the revenue, my assertion that a few games make the majority of profit still stands.

 



Tease.

Squilliam said:

Fine if you don't like my quick and dirty analysis how bout a more thourough database.

302 games in the database The number of games in the American database to prevent repeats. ( Conservative assumption because the games not included would have sold poorly anyway, the bias from this assumption further supports my point.)

142,000,000 games sold.

60 games comprise the top 20% (rounding down)

42 million sellers + 18 non million sellers. (94.6+14.8 = 109.4 million games sold comprise the top 20%)

The top 20% of games have therefore sold 77% of the total.

Therefore my assertion that 20% of games make 80% of revenue holds true.

Furthermore it is also well known that the top selling games hold their prices higher for longer and that most games sell in the first few weeks after the release (front loaded) These two factors further support my statement that 20% of games make 80% of the revenue.

Now consider that software development is a fixed cost once the game is released to the public with very little in terms of variable costs. So you see my assertion that 80% of profit goes to 20% of games is probably wrong, its closer to 90% actually. Since only about a 3rd of games actually break even.

This is typical of creative industries. Bookes/Movies/Games/Music all share the model where the lions share of actual profits go to very few endeavers. This would be an atypical model for other industries. This is not to say that profit cannot be found in smaller niches, what im saying is that most of the "total" profit goes to very few works.

The same would hold true of the software market on the Wii or PS3 or DS or PSP.

Hmm, we're getting closer, but we're not quite there yet. Assuming your figures are correct (and note that we're getting different figures, as I count 45 million sellers, not 42) the raw numbers do lean towards a split of revenue being as you say. Note though that I'm still not completely convinced: massive numbers of sales occur after a game achieves Greatest Hits/Player's Choice/Platinum Games status, wherein the revenue brought in plummets dramatically.

What dissatisfies me is that this still does not tell us about profits. I apologize for sounding like a broken record here, but I don't think you've directly addressed my concern just yet. For starters, I strongly disagree with your assertion that a game's costs are done when it's released.

You're forgetting the cost of advertisement, a cost which can absolutely massive when one includes television and print ads (as the best-sellers almost always do). You've seen the commercials, I assume, and the billboard ads for games like GTA, Wii Fit, etc. Indeed, we know that a game's advertisement costs are a hidden cost that can eat into the game's ultimate profitability.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18699

"The margins on these games are good when you look at development, but it takes a lot of marketing dollars," said (North American president of Ubisoft Laurent) Detoc. "It's like packaged goods. You have to think about marketing, retail space, branding."

I also don't quite follow you on your logic leap between these revenue figures being 80%, with profits therefore being 90%. In fact, we differ on that count by quite a bit. You're forgetting that a game's profits don't depend on its revenue, they depend on the revenue and the total costs. To give an example, we know that despite selling over a million copies, Heavenly Sword was still not profitable. By contrast, Zak and Wiki selling 400k copies (many of them for $20 or less) is still enough to make Capcom happy. Thus, revenue arguments don't tell us anywhere near enough to gauge profitability.

In fact, it appears that companies that focus on the low-revenue DS games tend to be more profitable in general than those which focus on making HD games (in general), even when the DS games barely crack six figures. Marvelous and Majesco are the prime examples of the latter, while Sega is a great example of the former.

I guess what I'm ultimately getting at is that these generalities, while simple to calculate, don't give us the angle we need to actually understand what in the blazes is going on. I won't call it "down and dirty", but it's still not enough for me. (I know, I'm kind of a jackass, huh?) While far from being worthless, the numbers you've brought are not yet a convincing enough counterpoint to Malstrom's assertion that rising HD costs are killing off gaming companies, not when there are so many signs that the times are a'changing.

 



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A related matter which I feel needs addressing: schooling does not teach a person to be intelligent. They can teach knowledge, they can teach theory, they can teach statistics, but they do not teach students to ask why. The knowledge, theories, and statistics are easy to convey; it takes time and effort, and of course a willingness on the behalf of the other party to learn, but there is no true challenge in teaching somebody these things. With enough time and persistence, anybody can learn them.

But to teach a person to think for themselves, to seek out answers and find the real reasons for what happens instead of sticking to a formula even when the formula fails... That is something that is not taught properly in schools. You cannot force a person to be curious, nor can you make them seek out answers to questions on their own. These things can be inspired, but no effort is made to do so for most students. So many leave school believing they are intelligent because they have knowledge, theories, and statistics, not realizing that they lack the most important tools of all: to be able to step back look at why it all means what it does as well as step forward and see why something specific happens.

That, above all else, is why I distrust those who turn to those three things in place of actual reasoning.



Sky Render - Sanity is for the weak.

Sky Render said:
Once again, you prove no comprehension of what I have said. All you have highlighted is that your personal beliefs do not align with one single thing I said, and that you have thus discounted everything else I have said in the process simply because of that disagreement. Instead of considering why I said that, you have assumed that since you feel it does not apply to him, it must not be true. Why are you making such an illogical assumption?

"Some believe genius is being able to see what others do not. But true genius is being able to explain that which others don't see to them in a way that they understand and that doesn't offend them. Malstrom is decidedly a genius in that regard, which is more than I can say for the sorts who say "you're wrong", rant on about theories and rules, utilize statistics in place of qualitative arguments, and then simply refuse to clarify in a way that uninformed individuals on the subject would understand.

"I believe genius is being able to see what others do not and many notable geniuses have been betrayed by a pack mentality which attempts to tear them down in life but lauds them after death for finding insights which truely frighten and confuse those they attempt to teach. One common thread which links these tragic geniuses such as (Insert proof/examples here) which links them to Malstrom is while he is proved right time and again for his frighteningly insightful views on the realities of the computer games market, the 'old guard' attempt to stiffle and belittle his insight. "

Ok I rewrote what you were saying in the first paragraph with my own.  Do you see how one might be better than the other? It took me litterally 2 minutes to write and I couldn't be bothered to proof read it.

Your first rhetorical statement is fine really, its just that you don't support your premise that Malstrom is a genius.

 



Tease.

I don't see your example as better, actually. You have completely rewritten the meaning to neglect the most important piece, and in the process completely eliminated the message I was conveying.

Genius is not seeing what others do not. Genius is conveying it so others will listen, understand, and take it to heart.



Sky Render - Sanity is for the weak.

Sky Render said:

I don't see your example as better, actually. You have completely rewritten the meaning to neglect the most important piece, and in the process completely eliminated the message I was conveying.

Genius is not seeing what others do not. Genius is conveying it so others will listen, understand, and take it to heart.

At least its not one big rhetorical statement.

 



Tease.

Squilliam said:
ItsaMii said:
Squilliam said:

Fine if you don't like my quick and dirty analysis how bout a more thourough database.

302 games in the database The number of games in the American database to prevent repeats. ( Conservative assumption because the games not included would have sold poorly anyway, the bias from this assumption further supports my point.)

142,000,000 games sold.

60 games comprise the top 20% (rounding down)

42 million sellers + 18 non million sellers. (94.6+14.8 = 109.4 million games sold comprise the top 20%)

The top 20% of games have therefore sold 77% of the total.

Therefore my assertion that 20% of games make 80% of revenue holds true.

Furthermore it is also well known that the top selling games hold their prices higher for longer and that most games sell in the first few weeks after the release (front loaded) These two factors further support my statement that 20% of games make 80% of the revenue.

Now consider that software development is a fixed cost once the game is released to the public with very little in terms of variable costs. So you see my assertion that 80% of profit goes to 20% of games is probably wrong, its closer to 90% actually. Since only about a 3rd of games actually break even.

This is typical of creative industries. Bookes/Movies/Games/Music all share the model where the lions share of actual profits go to very few endeavers. This would be an atypical model for other industries. This is not to say that profit cannot be found in smaller niches, what im saying is that most of the "total" profit goes to very few works.

The same would hold true of the software market on the Wii or PS3 or DS or PSP.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I give up dude. I hate being arrogant, I hate telling others that they are not worth my time. You are really testing my patience, so I will give just one advice: cool your head down, reread your posts and try checking your arguments at least 3 times before you post. So here it goes:

THE DATABASE IS FULL OF NON RELEASED GAMES AND DUPLICATES. that is why Bayonetta, Blue Dragon 2 and Halo wasrs got 0 sales on all territories.

It doesn't matter if its got duplicates. Theres always going to be an element of fudge when using Vgchartz numbers because there are flaws in the database. It also doesn't matter if its 20% of games making 70% of the revenue, my assertion that a few games make the majority of profit still stands.

 

 

It doesn`t matter if you are wrong or not. I am the stupid one for trying to argue you for so long. If you wanna do something that is at least slightly accurate, then:

1) go to gamefaqs and click on 360
2) start on A and go all the way to #
3) take out every downloadable or non released game
4) sometimes the same game has different names (japanese or european version)
5) games with faqs are always released (reviews or codes are not 100%)
6) check the data section if you are not sure

After all that you can try again and make some ridiculous clains about revenue and profits. 60 games out of 200 is not a big deal like 60 out of 300/400.

Also profits and revenues are not associated like you think. Namco made a pretty buck with Idol Master (around 100k units on retail) DLC. Even without DLC, the game could still be profitable considering low costs. The profits are nowhere near GTA 4, but if they made even 1 million in profits they were a lot more effective than Take2. And those 90 million Take2 made did not cancel their losses on their previous quarter.



Satan said:

"You are for ever angry, all you care about is intelligence, but I repeat again that I would give away all this superstellar life, all the ranks and honours, simply to be transformed into the soul of a merchant's wife weighing eighteen stone and set candles at God's shrine."