@Groucho

Saw this up on an earlier thread - this is from Factor 5, and I'd guess Wii games' costs are pretty close to GC games.

Pristine20 said: Kasz216 said: That's another reason why companies on the Wii are doing better i'd imagine. HD graphics are a killer costs wise. Though I wonder where he is getting his numbers from. "Analysis" is vague afterall. Perhaps it's just from their studios and past SCEE knowledge?   You know, as soon as i read the title, I knew someone was going to spin it into how nintendo and fellow wii devs have made so much money that they gave them some for free lol.

How is it spin when it's the actual case that Wii developers have been way more profitable then non-wii developers in most cases.  I mean nobody makes more money then Nintendo off software.  When you take out most of the nintendo games which almost all have made money off their development costs... where does that leave everyone else?

 

Groucho said: HappySqurriel said: Groucho said: Kasz216 said: That's another reason why companies on the Wii are doing better i'd imagine. HD graphics are a killer costs wise. Though I wonder where he is getting his numbers from. "Analysis" is vague afterall. Perhaps it's just from their studios and past SCEE knowledge?   This was the case long before the Wii even existed. I would wager that the Wii actually makes the problem worse -- you can't risk large dev costs on the Wii with so much shovelware competition and an untargetable (i.e. general) audience, but at the same time, it takes a reasonably large cost to create a decent game in the first place. If 3rd parties actually do up the Wii budgets from the 25-50% of the HD budgets that they are now, their risk will go up even moreso. 25%-50% budget for Wii titles doesn't mean they are the same quality of title as a typical HD title. A shovelware game on the Wii costs 25% what a AAA game on a HD console might take, but the potential profit margins are not necessarily better (yet). Publishers have been playing this ugly gambling game since the mid-90s. 30% is actually an improvement over what it was then. Its the blockbusters that make money and save publishing companies -- hence the increasing budgets of games over the years, and the willingness to risk more, while upping the bar and bringing the games industry to its current state. Publishers have been claiming that it costs 1/4 to 1/2 the cost of a HD game to make a similar Wii game ... Basically, it would a game that cost $100 Million to develop (like Grand Theft Auto 4 or Metal Gear Solid 4) would probably cost in the range of $25 Million to develop for the Wii Shovelware is drastically less expensive to produce than an AAA game, and most shovelware games will sit with tiny budgets ($500,000 to $1 Million I would expect) because they're designed to be profitable off of the initial sales to retailers.   I have to say that you are quoting bad science here. You're gonna have to prove that, for example, developing Super Mario Galaxy cost significantly less than, for example, the latest Ratchet & Clank. GTA4 and MGS4 are some of the most ridiculously high-budget titles of all time. They are *not* good examples -- and for that matter, they don't have any peers on the Wii. Most AAA games cost way less than $40 million to make, and $1 million does *not* produce a Wii shovelware title -- not even close. Again, feel free to name some examples that did.

That's a really bad comparison, man. Ratchet + Clank Future sold a little over a million copies (1.27) while Mario Galaxy sold almost 7. I could see them having similar dev. budgets, but the Mario game gave back a 5 fold higher profit. A better question is asking if Ratchet + Clank cost less to make than Carnival Games, which sold 1.89 Million copies so far. And it took six months to develop. http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2007/08/24/carnival-games-wii-developer-this-is-not-a-mini-game-collection/

I just looked it up and Majesco canceled half of its products, released others like Advent Rising prematurely which resulted in bad reviews and a bad game and had a big flop with Psychonauts. And to be sorry many people seem to think this is one of the best games ever but it didn't need a clairvoyant to see this sell badly. It was too weird and artistic which made it a niche title from the beginning (Okami hello). So all in all I would say the people to blame were the product managers and its a good example that products could run out of control in the SD console gen also.

Words Of Wisdom said: HappySqurriel said: Since you seem to be the uninformed one, why don't you look at the dozens of interviews with third party publishers which have claimed that HD games cost 2 to 4 times as much as Wii games. What people don't seem to get is that it takes far longer to produce the highly detailed models and textures that are required in HD games (and you need to create additional textures in order to apply the material effects), and you require far more of these objects and textures because the high detailed environments look sparse without being more heavily populated. When you combine these factors it explains why so many HD games cost so much more to develop while still having much shorter campaigns with less gameplay modes than similar games of the previous generation. This is self-evident really. If you want higher quality, you will have to pay more for it. The important thing to realize is that the game costs more to make because the bar of quality you're shooting for on one platform is higher than that of another, not because of costs inherent to the platform itself. To put that a bit differently, making a game that is visually identical on the Wii and 360 would have comparable costs. The 360 version would not magically become 2 to 4 times more expensive simply due to being on the 360.

On the 360 maybe.

A Wii looking game on the PS3 probably would cost more though. I mean look at the recent interview about rage. He had to put his best people, and twice as many people on the PS3 to do as much work as the 360 do to it's crazy hardware.

It is problematic that people seem to insist on "HD level" graphics. (Which aren't even really HD level since a lot aren't at 720, but it's a certain "look" demanded.)

How are video game budgets high? They're actually very low, blockbuster movies tend to cost several hundred million for a 2 hour production, a 20 hour game costs a fraction of that.

Kyros said: Tell that to Majesco ... I just looked it up and Majesco canceled half of its products, released others like Advent Rising prematurely which resulted in bad reviews and a bad game and had a big flop with Psychonauts. And to be sorry many people seem to think this is one of the best games ever but it didn't need a clairvoyant to see this sell badly. It was too weird and artistic which made it a niche title from the beginning (Okami hello). So all in all I would say the people to blame were the product managers and its a good example that products could run out of control in the SD console gen also.

 

I agree with what you said, but you're saying something quite a bit different than what you initially claimed. It is not companies that are producing "Good" games that are profitable, it is companies that are producing well known properties in popular genres that are profitable; there is quite a large difference being that many good games simply can not have their development budget justified because they're too risky being that they're not an established franchise and are not in a (particuarly) popular genre.

As an example, Capcom can justify developing a game like Zack and Wiki even though its overall sales potential is not that great because is development costs are low enough that it doesn't require high sales to break even, and even if it doesn't turn a profit it won't lose so much money to (really) impact their bottom line. To produce a similar game with a visual quality appropriate for a HD console would simply be too expensive to justify.

DTG said: How are video game budgets high? They're actually very low, blockbuster movies tend to cost several hundred million for a 2 hour production, a 20 hour game costs a fraction of that.

 

How many videogames can generate $100 Million (or more) in revenue from theater tickets, an additional $100 Million (or more) in revenue from DVD sales, and an additional $50 Million (or more) in revenue from pay-per-view and television contracts in the United States alone?

DTG said: How are video game budgets high? They're actually very low, blockbuster movies tend to cost several hundred million for a 2 hour production, a 20 hour game costs a fraction of that.

 

By that logic a piece of gum that costs 1 million dollars to make has a cheap budget.

Ok this is true up to a point. I think innovative games like Spore CAN be huge sellers. But the risk is much higher. Good executed games of well-known franchises may be a safe choice but after a while you need new IP or you will be headed for a most likely slow decline. Consumers will only buy the same thing a couple of times.
Another thing is the difference between good as in good reviews and good as in many people like to play it. You can make millions with a bad game for a famous movie, IP etc. but people will see that its a bad game when they play it and eventually you loose customers. On the other hand a game like Psychonauts may get rave reviews but honestly who can identify with/ wants to play the cubistic looking hero? Good execution is necessary in any case.

BTW I think Lair is a bad example and also reeks of really bad product management. They had this huge world with battles with thousands of troops but they couldn't get the basic flying mechanic, the core of the game, right? That smells of really really bad priorities.



Honestly I do not buy that. Comic graphics look the same on any console and are not more expensive to make on one or the other (At least I would think so). I think bigger reasons are that Zak&Wiki was essentially a Wiimote puzzle game, no classic adventure, and perhaps that they thought the 400$ HD console audience wouldn't be the best target group for Z&W. The xbox for example has Katamari which doesn't look very HD either