They change every now and then.  Just not as often as they used to but why change the basic design.  There isn't anything actually wrong with it so why change?  FPSs hardly change at all but other than a select few, no one cares.  Though it would help if 90% of the JRPGs weren't cliche ritten, plot hole-filled story fests as many people hate JRPGs because of that.  But story is still the 2nd most important(1st being gameplay) element of a JRPG.  A game with a great story can still be bad if the gameplay is bad and JRPGs are no exception.

Hmm... I like more odd JRPGs that most people would probably have never heard of.  Riviera The Promised Land is a good example of a JPRG I like.  A pretty nice soundtrack, fun characters, and a very interesting battle system all contributed to making the game very enjoyable.  Xenosaga is a good example of a JRPG series that I like.  Great character development, good story, and a battle system with 4 different flavors of awesome (in Episode 1 anyway).

For a series to be good, it has to be uniquely interesting to me.  After playing several Tales Of games, the entire experience feels meh.  There's no magic in it for me.  The names are different, the stories are different but the game is the same.  The attacks, the combat, the character stereotypes... all the same.  It leaves a bit of the "Didn't I just play this game" aftertaste with me.  It's very much like KotOR2.  The game is a good, but so much is ripped from the first one (including storyline/character concepts) that it just feels like a hollow experience.

The series gets more hype than it deserves here, on these forums.  Several members are excessively fond of the series and with ToS2 being the Wii's first "big" (if you can call Tales big...) upcoming JRPG series, the series as a whole gets hyped quite a bit.  Plus these days Namco Bandai Games is crapping them out all over the place.  They milked Phantasia dry so now they're milking the franchise as a whole.  2008 alone is getting what... 5 of them spread across various platforms?  Heck, they've even made "Tales of" games for mobile phones in the past...

I'm not into whole JRPG thing, and looking at Tales, it's the very epitome of the genre.  I tried the demo and was equally unimpressed, but then again, I've tried other JRPG and have been as unimpressed as well.  It's just not for some people...and I'm one of them.  I'm not disappointed, since the target audience is for mostly Japan, not me...I got my Mass Effect fix, and Oblivion before that.

You do realize that the same is said much more often about the Fire Emblem series. Those statements are just as wrong, imo, but then again, that's all it is. Opinion.

I do find pre-judging this particular game a little out of place considering the main reason you're doing so is probably to piss off our mutual friend "S" who shall remain nameless here.

Anyway, I'll speak a moment on Riviera: The Promised Land. I'd say FFVI advance, Golden Sun, and Riviera battle it out for best traditional JRPG on the GBA(The Fire Emblems blows them all away, imo) but I did have a few issues with Riviera, though they are nitpicks. I'd say the beginning is one of the best starts to an RPG, ever, and the characters/story are classic, with superb localization.

Now, on to my defense of ToS. I think that you try to dissect that game down to its basest parts and measure them to prove that the game isn't as good as many claim. However, the game delivers in the vital areas that most RPG fans look for games to succeed at, even if they don't realize it. I think you'll find this an interesting read, as I've never put this to paper before:

The key areas for jRPGs success are in no particular order:

1. A well-paced sense of improvement: Spells look stronger, damage and hp increase exponentially, and earlier enemies are destroyed by you simply standing near them. Games that fail at this are Dragonquest, Lost Odyssey, and Paper Mario. The pace of increase is also important, so games like Eternal Sonata also completely screw the pooch on this one. If I'm doing "1" damage at the beginning with a regular attack, at the end game I don't wanna do "3" with an attack. I wanna do Omnislash.

2. Character development: Story is the least important aspect of any JRPG. However, most people don't know the difference between "story" and "character development." FFVII's story sucked. Evil corporation spawn bad guy who wronged you in the past. You got anmesia, got memeber back, seek vengance. Very standard stuff. However, the character interaction, the interaction, moods, and personalities of the evil and good guys, the mood, the atmosphere. These are all influenced heavily by character development. FFXII is an example of a game with a good story, but no character development, thus it dissapointed many.

3. A fun gameplay element that doesn't get old: Again, I hate to point out LO, but it has a fairly mediocre "fun gameplay element" which is the trigger press when the circles match upon attacks with your melee characters. A much better gimmicky "fun gameplay element" was the multiple pattern squares found in Tales of Dragoon, or even the gunblade mechanic in VIII, and especially the limit break mechanics in VIII. VI, Sabin's Blitz commands pretty much invented this and perfected it at the same time. However, not all elements have to be immediate and twitch based. VII does an excellent job in allowing materia combinations and customization, along with summons and sidequests, in giving you varies and excellent gameplay elements that might not differ, but vasly improve upon those of its predecessors in many areas.

Now, if you get these three things to all fall into place, then at the very least you'll have a cult hit on your hands. Some games still manage to be great, by performing great in two areas, but missing the boat on a third, but for a game to really succeed in all three of these major areas, even if it lets down in some of the less important ones, like story, graphics, or presentation, can lead to a magical experience.

Tales of Symphonia actually performs averagely or poorly in most areas of gaming, but in those three, I feel it excells.

The sense of improvement is good, above average even, and perfectly paced. Not only do you improve by doing more damage, but there is a complex co-op system in place that enble super combos, and special moves, that are only possible once you learn the moves that allow them to be performed. In other words, even if you weren't going to use Super Sonic Thrust, you need to learn it so you can string together a group attack, or learn the next ultra powerful technique.

These special moves are done with actual action on the controller. The game was based on the idea of "JRPG with fighting game engine" which gave up some very fun gameplay elements, all of which were deep, mix that in with competant level design, modern jRPG improvements, and a long playing time with plenty of hardcore appeal for replay, and you've definitely got a gameplay experience that is addicting to entheusiastic fans, and rewarding for time spent. Again, when FF copies(even if inadvertantly) your AI system, you've hit on something. There is a lot to talk about as far as enjoyment of the battle system, and it's certainly the hook of the game. Even just the basic A,A,A attack sequence with Lloyd is fun, if a bit repetitive, and seems to be ripped directly from Cervantes in Soulcalibur. The game is fun to play once you get into it. That's just how it was designed. However, derived enjoyment in gaming, like in anything that requires practice, knowledge, and skill , is never readily apparent.

As for character development, Tales of Symphonia is rarely matched. Sheer volume of text and spoken word with all of your lovable anime characters will have you sick of knowing how they feel. The OVA of the series actually much was less detailed than the game. The catch is it only explains the first couple of hours of the 60 hour(not a guestimate, you'll be lucky to be done in 60 hours) game. The game matches that pace the whole way through. You would actually have less character development if you watched a 30 hour movie about the game, than if you played it. Even more excellent is the fact that much of the character development is optional in the form of "skits." The charactes interact, and often have fights, which always play out in comedic or serious fashion, and there is literally so much character development you'll want to skip some. The characters are also very interesting and opinionated. This is the main reason that people love these games. The character devlopment passes that of most good animes.

So yeah, if you dissect Tales of Symphonia without giving yourself over to the experience, you might feel like the game doesn't live up to the hype, however, for JRPG fans like myself who are looking for a game with the specific qualities that made me love games like FFVII and VIII, Tales of Symphonia is the holy grail. It excells in the areas it needs to excell in for the genre, and it never leaves a bad taste in my mouth after playing. I care about the characters and enjoy helping and seeing them get stronger, as they interact with the plot twists and each other.

If you're a fighting or jrpg game fan who loves anime and final fantasy, then I really don't see how Tales of Symphonia doesn't appeal to you. The game, imo, is made for you, and hits the nail on the head for my demographic. It is what I wish every JRPG I played could live up to. I gave it a 9/10 after my first playthrough, and I feel like sticking with that number. If nothing else, the game was very long and lovingly crafted, even if it didn't appeal to a few people, but of those who completed it generally liked it a lot. It's known as a cult classic for a reason, and besides RE4 and TP, is tied for my favorite game availabe on gamecube with Thousand Year Door, Wind Waker, and Path of Radiance.

JRPG's also have a very large audience here in America. You can tell because nearly every hardcore poster here has an outspoken and passionate opinion about nearly every Final Fantasy game, as well as the large percentage of Playstation fanboys sporting anime or jrpg avatars.

That's anecdotal evidence, but I hesitate to pull out sales number....ever. Just suffice it to say that like shooters and wrpgs, there is a significant and large fanbase for anime and JRPG in america, which shouldn't and hasn't been ignored by developers. If you took the all time sales of JRPGs in america and put them up against the all time sales of other popular genres, you might be surprised how high the genre creeps up, due to, if nothing else, sheer quantity of available titles on handhelds and the PS2.

 Large, correct but they are not the mainstay of RPG genre in America, while they are in Japan, which was my point.  I'm not saying it will not sell in the US, but is it going to sell 2 million like tops on 360....or even break a million?

I generally enjoy JRPG and don't mind the quirkiness but Tales so far doesn't grab me. Even Blue Dragon crappy demo was more interesting. I have played and finished Eternal Sonata and find the combat to be enjoyable (especially when play co-op), if Tales combat can give me the "fun" with better story than Sonata, I might consider buying it.

But with Infinite Undiscovery just around the corner along with Last Remnant I think I will find those two more enjoyable. (Not to mention I just pick up Dragon Quest VII for $5.00 and still haven't crack open my copy of Rogue Galaxy)

The genre is, imo, mainstream and healthy in America, and probably bigger than WRPGs that aren't MMOs even here in the US. Let me explain that statement:

There is a huge difference between speaking about this game and speaking about the genre in general. Are shooters a niche genre because Prey didn't sell a million?

Lesser known unadvertised games with anime themes might have a niche audience, but JRPGs in general are fairly mainstream in America, especially according to hardcore and knowledgable gamers, or can you list me a bunch of PS3 and 360 fanboys on this site that don't care about Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Verses, or Square Enix support in general?

Again, JRPG is a main genre of game in the United States, and I doubt interest is higher in WRPGs than JRPGs and SJRPGs, here in the states. I would guess that you could add up all WRPG games sales for consoles and handhelds in the last 10 years, and then add up all the JRPG sales, and one genre would be the clear winner probably by a factor of 20 or so. This is largely due to availability of games, popularity of Final Fantasy and the popularity that game has spread for the genre, as well as relative lack of WRPGs on the consoles.

Just imagine how many games on the Playstation, GBA, DS, and PS2, were sold from the JRPG or SJRPG genre, compared to Fable, Oblivion, Morrowind, and Dark Alliance.

I mean, we know that the JRPG genre must certainly be beating the fighting genre, we consider that a mainstream genre. So, how come we consider JRPGs as "not targeted for americans" when in fact, the genre sells better here than some genres do worldwide.

Saying that the JRPG genre is niche is marginalization of that genre from a non-fan. On top of that, lately, it's been a Sony fanboy talking point, so it's an even more suspicous assertion now that it has ever been. Obvious reasoning just doesn't support it. If the JRPG genre is niche here in the US, then why do we buy so, so many of them? Because those are the only games that are available? That's not so.

Final Fantasy X-2 sold almost 2 million units in the United States alone. I still have my copy. X sold almost 3 million. Tales of symphonia sold half a million on the gamecube, just here in the US. Now, just look at the vast array of JRPGs that are available and purchased for handhelds in the last few years(VII, VIII, IX, X, X-2, XII being the highest selling), the PS1, and the PS2. Even if it's not one of the top 5 genres here in the states, it certainly isn't "niche." Otherwise the market wouldn't support the sheer number of them, that are created and localized.

Also, it's not like the genre hasn't left its footprint in American gaming history. Many, many top games lists include Chrono Trigger, FFVI, Earthbound, FFVII, and Secret of Mana.

Then there is the SJRPG crowd. A niche genre within the broader JRPG genre. For JRPG fans who have the acquired tastes, there is the SJRPG. A genre within a genre.

IMO, saying that JRPGs are niche in the US, is an incomplete and unimformed assumption based off of minimal reasoning and research. Not that you necessarily said that, but if you're going to hint around it, I'd prefer you to clarify.

I couldn't have said that any better

EDIT:JRPGs are a mainstream genre.  If they were niche, even FF and KH wouldn't sell millions of copies

Tales of Symphonia is pretty awful in all three of those things.

Improvement in the game is a joke.  Once you have Raine's Nurse and one of Lloyd's Leaping Tiger moves, you pretty much have your strategy for the rest of the entire game ready to go.  Genis may trade up a few spells later and you'll likely begin abusing Prism Stars once you get it but that's about it really.  It also doesn't help that Lloyd can nearly solo the game by himself.

Character development would be better if some of the characters were interesting to begin with.  Of course, the bits of interest are handled extremely poorly.  The history between Regal and Presea could have been a very powerful source of conflict and an interesting sidestory, but it amounted to nothing more than a speed bump in the story.

As far as gameplay getting old... that's my biggest problem with Tales Of.  The gameplay is always the same.  Nothing new, nothing interesting, just same old same old.