From my own perspective, measuring games should be viewed in the perspective of a jigsaw puzzle.

Graphics take up one of the larger chunks of the puzzle, yet there are many more elements that also make contributing factors to the game.

IMHO older games like Super Mario World and ChronoTrigger (for examples) still shine so brightly because of the overall quality of the package, and they still do many individual aspects of game design better than many newer game titles.

That's not the point. Geometry Wars is about £5 on XBLA and it's clearly a retro title aimed at a certain market. It does not mean that you could take any game with amazing graphics and remove those graphics and it would be just the same, otherwise there would no point in the graphics boost that happens with every manufacturer from generation to generation. If the only thing you want is simple graphics and gameplay that's boiled right down to the basics, then you don't even need a Wii for that.

What you should all do is mass email magazines and review sites asking them to remove the "graphics" part of any review score. If it's as irrelevant as you say and I am merely an elitist, then any review score shouldn't take graphics into consideration at all, and any professional games reviewer should know this already. Get on the case!

horriblebastard said: Geometry Wars is not that much different (or advanced) from most mid-80s arcade shooters and yet it still receives scores in the 80s and 90s from most reviewers ... In general, good gameplay is good regardless of the decade you play a game in. That's not the point. Geometry Wars is about £5 on XBLA and it's clearly a retro title aimed at a certain market. It does not mean that you could take any game with amazing graphics and remove those graphics and it would be just the same, otherwise there would no point in the graphics boost that happens with every manufacturer from generation to generation. If the only thing you want is simple graphics and gameplay that's boiled right down to the basics, then you don't even need a Wii for that.

 

So what you're saying is that the Wii can have amazing games as long as it does not (primarily) receive ports of PS3, XBox 360 or new PC games?

Notice that everytime the Wii is bashed, it ends up selling more. It's as if Nintendo listens to the forums.


Wiihater: Wii's graphics are very suck ass and it has no 3rd party support.
Vgchartz: Guys, the Wii sold 500k this week.
Wiihater: Omg! *sniffles*



It's that simple, let the haterz hate and watch the money pile up.

Not really. I don't think it helps when the Wii gets cut down versions of games on other platforms, but then what are devs to do? If you only own a Wii you would probably rather have the option of buying a game than not.

My opinion in a nutshell is: -

1. Graphics alone can never make a game good.
2. Good graphics are an element that can make a game better.
3. Wii games generally look like crap on a HDTV compared to other systems.

I'd guess that in general, most people would agree with 1 and 2. Problem is you get this graphics Vs. gameplay debate that's not really relevant when you can have both.

The thread is only about graphics and I think they're definitely a weakness in the Wii's case. I suspect that nobody would be complaining if the Wii was HD, and I also suspect that many of the HD naysayers will change their tune entirely if the Wii2 is HD capable.

Unless it's piling up in your bank account I don't see why you care. "Haterz" - lol. MS make more money than Nintendo in general so they must be teh WINNAR!!

To me graphics are just an added bonus.

Would I like to see Mario in 1080P with super high res textures and all the graphical effects you can think of? hell yeah! But once you get over the initial shock value of amazing visuals, you focus more on the gameplay and many times it doesn't complement the visuals. For example Gears of War, i was amazed for about the first 30 minutes, then i just got accustomed to seeing those types of visuals and i didn't find myself saying "wow this looks great" any more, it became just a standard shooting game with a few cool gimmicks.

horriblebastard said: So what you're saying is that the Wii can have amazing games as long as it does not (primarily) receive ports of PS3, XBox 360 or new PC games? Not really. I don't think it helps when the Wii gets cut down versions of games on other platforms, but then what are devs to do? If you only own a Wii you would probably rather have the option of buying a game than not. My opinion in a nutshell is: - 1. Graphics alone can never make a game good. 2. Good graphics are an element that can make a game better. 3. Wii games generally look like crap on a HDTV compared to other systems. I'd guess that in general, most people would agree with 1 and 2. Problem is you get this graphics Vs. gameplay debate that's not really relevant when you can have both. The thread is only about graphics and I think they're definitely a weakness in the Wii's case. I suspect that nobody would be complaining if the Wii was HD, and I also suspect that many of the HD naysayers will change their tune entirely if the Wii2 is HD capable. It's that simple, let the haterz hate and watch the money pile up. Unless it's piling up in your bank account I don't see why you care. "Haterz" - lol. MS make more money than Nintendo in general so they must be teh WINNAR!!

he sums it up pretty nicely.

i like my games with great plots too :)

 

horriblebastard said: So what you're saying is that the Wii can have amazing games as long as it does not (primarily) receive ports of PS3, XBox 360 or new PC games? Not really. I don't think it helps when the Wii gets cut down versions of games on other platforms, but then what are devs to do? If you only own a Wii you would probably rather have the option of buying a game than not. My opinion in a nutshell is: - 1. Graphics alone can never make a game good. 2. Good graphics are an element that can make a game better. 3. Wii games generally look like crap on a HDTV compared to other systems. I'd guess that in general, most people would agree with 1 and 2. Problem is you get this graphics Vs. gameplay debate that's not really relevant when you can have both. The thread is only about graphics and I think they're definitely a weakness in the Wii's case. I suspect that nobody would be complaining if the Wii was HD, and I also suspect that many of the HD naysayers will change their tune entirely if the Wii2 is HD capable. It's that simple, let the haterz hate and watch the money pile up. Unless it's piling up in your bank account I don't see why you care. "Haterz" - lol. MS make more money than Nintendo in general so they must be teh WINNAR!!

I suggest you to play on PC. No home consoles' games can surpass PC graphics.

 

RolStoppable said: It looks like a weakness, but it isn't. I have to admit that you did your best to present the positive effects as negative. On purpose. If graphics can't be the selling point, the game has to rely on its idea for engaging gameplay. Which means that during development more time is spent on making the game fun instead of making it look as pretty as possible. Logically this should result in more unique and entertaining games and that is good. It's similar to the SNES, 2D graphics had hit the point where they were considered to be good enough by most people and it became really hard for developers to sell their games based on graphics. So it mostly became a battle of talent and ideas in order to create a hit game. The result was that the SNES is seen as one of the best systems ever made due to its diverse game library. The DS is in a similar situation, 2D games are big on the Nintendo handheld, but they can't sell based on their graphics. So once again developers have to think of unique concepts to make their games sell instead of maxing out graphics. Additionally the DS offers new input methods like the touchscreen and the microphone, giving developers the oppurtunity to think up games that weren't possible to be made before. The result? People are already comparing the DS to the SNES. So what's going to happen to the Wii, if 3D graphics have hit the point where they are considered to be good enough by most people and the controller allows for new gameplay ideas to be realized? I think we have some very interesting years ahead of us.

You cut to the quick every time. If I had written a couple more paragraphs for the OP then they probably would have been very similar to what you've written. Thanks!

horriblebastard said: So what you're saying is that the Wii can have amazing games as long as it does not (primarily) receive ports of PS3, XBox 360 or new PC games? Not really. I don't think it helps when the Wii gets cut down versions of games on other platforms, but then what are devs to do? If you only own a Wii you would probably rather have the option of buying a game than not. My opinion in a nutshell is: - 1. Graphics alone can never make a game good. 2. Good graphics are an element that can make a game better. 3. Wii games generally look like crap on a HDTV compared to other systems. I'd guess that in general, most people would agree with 1 and 2. Problem is you get this graphics Vs. gameplay debate that's not really relevant when you can have both. The thread is only about graphics and I think they're definitely a weakness in the Wii's case. I suspect that nobody would be complaining if the Wii was HD, and I also suspect that many of the HD naysayers will change their tune entirely if the Wii2 is HD capable. It's that simple, let the haterz hate and watch the money pile up. Unless it's piling up in your bank account I don't see why you care. "Haterz" - lol. MS make more money than Nintendo in general so they must be teh WINNAR!!

 

I would dispute #3 being that the Wii's graphics look far from "crap" on my 34 inch CRT HDTV, which is still pretty competitive with high end Plasma dn LCD TVs in terms of image quality; on a low qualith LCD/Plasma TV it could look somewhat pixelated, but that is more of a sign of a bad TV than a problem with the system.

Beyond that, Nintendo has already claimed that their next system will be fully HD capable and I personally believe that Nintendo had lots of reasons to not go forward with HD on the Wii (http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=37077) which will not be as large of factors in the next generation.