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Yeah..The earth is very complex and fine tuned so i don't think it could've bursting into something out of nothing



At the name of YESHUA, EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth (Philippians 2:10)

I have the biggest Wishlist on VGchartz

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Sqrl said:

In case you missed it.

@premise 1,

Sqrl said:

Not quite...

The first law of thermodynamics assumes a closed system, we do not know if the universe is a closed sysytem (and actually have indications it isn't) and if it isn't we don't necessarily know that what is external to the universe operates under the same laws. 

In fact we know that particles (and even micro-black holes) pop into existance all the time, they are allowed to do so so long as they repay their cost shortly after, typically a given particle will be anilihated by its anti-particle paying for both of them but there are some circumstances that can lead to particles avoiding the cost and yet still existing.  The only logical scenarios this agrees with are that the universe is NOT a closed system or there is some method by which the energy cost is being paid that we are entirely unaware of and is part of this universe.  The more likely scenario is that the univsere is not a closed system.

 

"To us, vacuums appear to contain nothing at all. But, if you were to look closely, very, very closely (to the order of 10^-35m), space is actually a foaming mass of quantum activity. This quantum foam is made of particles and micro-black holes popping in and out of existence, apparently in contravention of the second law of thermodynamics, they appear out of nothing with energy, then disappear again just as quickly. The key to this is the uncertainty principle. The disturbance is permitted to ‘borrow’ a tiny amount of energy and exist for a very short length of time, and then it must return the energy and disappear again. But, the more energy it borrows, the less time it is allowed to exist. These ‘temporary’ particles, called virtual particles, are not just theoretical, they have been proven to have real effects on scientific experiment."

Note: The 2nd law of thermodynamics is essentially that the entropy in a system will always increase. Also the links in this quote were added by me.

Perhaps the universe is indeed open to another source of energy (not that quantum "foam" and the like has really been observed), but I don't see how that alleviates the problem, as it's still energy coming form a different source, and we certainly can't say this energy (which apparently acts (while it's manifested) in the same way) is not bound by our observed lawsSo I would conclude that energy still cannot be created, just moved from a mysterious source.  Futhermore, I would think it's a little early to claim that particles are simply popping out of nowhere in defiance of known physics.

 

 

Oh BTW this quote:

"Science doesn't really work, anyway. You can't prove anything with it, you can't even claim it can give a good guess. You can never prove that you're not hallucinating, or being manipulated by some sinister force. And you can't say that it's indicative of anything because you would be using science to demonstrate that, which would be circular. I'm not even sure if methods of truth exist, or if the idea makes any sense at all.

Is nothing but philosophical skepticism.  Most people recognize that you must reject it completely or live paralyzed in indecision.  Note what happens when you turn this position on itself, now we cannot trust the idea that we cannot trust things.  Note what happens when you turn this position on god, now we cannot be sure that anything that allegedly happened regarding any religion has ever happened.  Note what happens when you turn this on existence, now we cannot be sure that anyone exist and must accept the possibility that we are nothing but the figment of a delusional imagination, but of who?.  The thinking is circular and paralyzing and it must be ignored for progress to be made. So long as science continues to explain the universe to great accuracy, consistency, and agreeance with objective observable evidence people will logically continue to ignore the idea of philosophical skepticism in favor of what works.

Even if skepticism does lead you to nothing, that certainly doesn't validate any other method of thought; they're still just as far away from proving anything.  And I merely contest science, not ideas or truth themselves.  Presuppositionalism (although I 'm not so sure how well it works) is an alternative to circularity of knowing nothing.  Or there's the possibility of revelation (which may be a from of Pressup., and I'm not so sure how it works either); that is, an all-powerful being (sorry if that sounds Christian cliche-ish) gives you the ability to know things for certain.

Ok with premise 1 addressed I'd like to point out that premise 2 is irrelevant since with the 1st law of thermodynamics properly used in this context there is no rule that says the universe cannot spring from "nothing" (the term is used loosely) and thus no longer has a need to be infinite. I address it for completeness.

Now to address premise 2,

As for the "infinite paradox", its not really a paradox although I should point out that a paradox is not necessarily a contradiction (read more) to begin with. 

But to more concretely deal with it I shall go to space-time, something most people are familiar with by now is the concept that time is simply another dimension of space.  All mass has a constant velocity through these 4 (or more) dimensions which is why if you increase your spatial velocity you lose velocity (aka "Slow down") in your movement through time.  I point these proven facts out because it is important to understand that time is literally another dimension just like space.

Now understanding this consider the "paradox" of where you are right now.  Just like where we are in time at this moment (an infinite expanse of time) you are in an infinite expanse of space.  No, not the infinitely large kind of space, the infinitely small kind of space.  You're standing at 6.734572342456673452345667.....etc which can go to infinite precision and yet you can still exist within this infinite expanse.

Now, the point here is that many people often mistake their own inability to comprehend an infinite expanse for an inability to exist in one.  Consider this, if it were impossible for you or I to exist within an infinite expanse, what can exist within an infinite expanse?  And if nothing can exist within an infinite expanse how can anything be infinite if nothing can be part of it? 

For the record the infinitely small example is a false example but I thought it would be easier than attempting to relate the details of a non-euclidian geomotry to you to explain that space can be infinite in the large scale.  Its used as a proxy example because it is far easier to understand for those who don't want to spend a bunch of time reading about math (like me =p).

I'm not sure how this gets around crossing an infinite amount of time though; if we had an infinite amount of time in the future, we really couldn't get to the end of it (as that's impossible via definition), so how could we have an infinite time before us, indicating that we somehow did cross an infinte amount of time?

 

But I do love math, so lay on the good links!

Pardon me if I sounded arrogant in this post; I can't tell how I'm coming across (including this sentence).

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz

Grey and Sri Lumpa's arguements are far too long to read.

Ugghhh....

What are they arguing about exactly?



Kimi wa ne tashika ni ano toki watashi no soba ni ita

Itsudatte itsudatte itsudatte

Sugu yoko de waratteita

Nakushitemo torimodosu kimi wo

I will never leave you

I think right now I am leaning more to athiesm more than ever.

Like I have said, Religion is inspired by fear. People are afraid to be punished by God by breaking the commandments or commiting sins. They have a fear of hell. This causes people to be good. Their reward is heaven.

People cause their reality to be overshadowed. They are so desperate to overcome their fears or gain a reward that they want to believe in something that will make it true. But the thing that they want to believe in is without any proof.



Kimi wa ne tashika ni ano toki watashi no soba ni ita

Itsudatte itsudatte itsudatte

Sugu yoko de waratteita

Nakushitemo torimodosu kimi wo

I will never leave you

dtewi said:
Grey and Sri Lumpa's arguements are far too long to read.

Ugghhh....

What are they arguing about exactly?

basically, Sri Lumpa is attempting to assert God existence as being subjected to the universe, while I'm asserting the universe's existence being subjected to God. We're both doing this through a series of philosophical and theoretical proofs and then pointing out weaknesses in each other's proofs.

 



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

<- Click to see more of her

 

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Grey Acumen said:
dtewi said:
Grey and Sri Lumpa's arguements are far too long to read.

Ugghhh....

What are they arguing about exactly?

basically, Sri Lumpa is attempting to assert God existence as being subjected to the universe, while I'm asserting the universe's existence being subjected to God. We're both doing this through a series of philosophical and theoretical proofs and then pointing out weaknesses in each other's proofs.

Well if God did exist, being a perfect and omnipotent being, the Universe would be subject to him.

 



Kimi wa ne tashika ni ano toki watashi no soba ni ita

Itsudatte itsudatte itsudatte

Sugu yoko de waratteita

Nakushitemo torimodosu kimi wo

I will never leave you

dtewi said:
I think right now I am leaning more to athiesm more than ever.

Like I have said, Religion is inspired by fear. People are afraid to be punished by God by breaking the commandments or commiting sins. They have a fear of hell. This causes people to be good. Their reward is heaven.

People cause their reality to be overshadowed. They are so desperate to overcome their fears or gain a reward that they want to believe in something that will make it true. But the thing that they want to believe in is without any proof.

 

Not all religions have the threat of hell, though; what terrors are there in hinduism (I really hope I didn't just stick my foot in my mouth with that), and probably tons of others?

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
dtewi said:

Well if God did exist, being a perfect and omnipotent being, the Universe would be subject to him.

Pretty much, the only issue at that point is whether you are willing to accept/believe that.

 

dtewi said:
I think right now I am leaning more to athiesm more than ever.

Like I have said, Religion is inspired by fear. People are afraid to be punished by God by breaking the commandments or commiting sins. They have a fear of hell. This causes people to be good. Their reward is heaven.

People cause their reality to be overshadowed. They are so desperate to overcome their fears or gain a reward that they want to believe in something that will make it true. But the thing that they want to believe in is without any proof.

Religion is a mix of Faith and politics. you shouldn't place the faults of the politics on that of the faith. wether belief in god is present or not, people will still attempt to control other people through fear and ignorance. The belief in god allows you to realize that no matter what position of authority a person is in, there are things that are right and things that are wrong regardless of what they say. If you claim that as a reason to stop believing in god, all you'll have left is the politics, and then everything has gone straight to the shithole.



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

<- Click to see more of her

 

appolose said:
dtewi said:
I think right now I am leaning more to athiesm more than ever.

Like I have said, Religion is inspired by fear. People are afraid to be punished by God by breaking the commandments or commiting sins. They have a fear of hell. This causes people to be good. Their reward is heaven.

People cause their reality to be overshadowed. They are so desperate to overcome their fears or gain a reward that they want to believe in something that will make it true. But the thing that they want to believe in is without any proof.

Not all religions have the threat of hell, though; what terrors are there in hinduism (I really hope I didn't just stick my foot in my mouth with that), and probably tons of others?

The hell of Hinduism is being reincarnated as an untouchable or as a leper or a slave or an animal people hunt or eat or hate, like a tasty fish or an evil bear or snake.

It might not be the monotheistic concept of eternal damnation, but it sucks for a long time, and strikes fear into the hearts of men, to control them and make them do good.

 

Any religion that explains something that happens to you after you die and has anything good or bad after this life... is controlling people through fear.  Some people would argue that religions without that kinda stuff aren't even religions, but are philosophies.  Whatever.

I trump them all together and call it "Afterlifism" and I throw it out the window.  I'm only living once and I'm kicking ass at it here on Earth with the rest of the bums.

 



The Ghost of RubangB said:
appolose said:
dtewi said:
I think right now I am leaning more to athiesm more than ever.

Like I have said, Religion is inspired by fear. People are afraid to be punished by God by breaking the commandments or commiting sins. They have a fear of hell. This causes people to be good. Their reward is heaven.

People cause their reality to be overshadowed. They are so desperate to overcome their fears or gain a reward that they want to believe in something that will make it true. But the thing that they want to believe in is without any proof.

Not all religions have the threat of hell, though; what terrors are there in hinduism (I really hope I didn't just stick my foot in my mouth with that), and probably tons of others?

The hell of Hinduism is being reincarnated as an untouchable or as a leper or a slave or an animal people hunt or eat or hate, like a tasty fish or an evil bear or snake.

It might not be the monotheistic concept of eternal damnation, but it sucks for a long time, and strikes fear into the hearts of men, to control them and make them do good.

 

Any religion that explains something that happens to you after you die and has anything good or bad after this life... is controlling people through fear.  Some people would argue that religions without that kinda stuff aren't even religions, but are philosophies.  Whatever.

I trump them all together and call it "Afterlifism" and I throw it out the window.  I'm only living once and I'm kicking ass at it here on Earth with the rest of the bums.

 

I wouldn't put it that way; I would guess at least some are being honest with themselves, and think they are providing a service to others.  It's not necessarily control.

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz