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Forums - Sony - New 80GB "Core" PS3 in September for 399 - No BC

FishyJoe said:
Andir said:
FishyJoe said:
I haven't seen anything from a reliable source that indicates they have been able to emulate the GS or are even working on it.

And I haven't seen anything from any reliable source that indicates that it is not possible and/or they are not working on it.

See, I can play this game too.

 

There are people who know more than I do, like SSJ, that say emulation is difficult if not impossible because the GS has high speed memory inside of the chip that is faster than the memory inside the PS3. It's not a game, it just the facts as they exist.

And I'm not claiming they are not working on emulation. But there are plenty of people making it seem like fact that emulation is not only possible, but upcoming. I haven't seen any information to support that position.

The GS's framebuffer memory (at 38.4 GB/s which is only used to store screen data on renders) is the only information readily available that might lead to this conclusion, and it's only 4MB.  It would hardly be something to worry about since they both have the capability to buffer whatever data needs to be displayed.  Nobody, including SSJ on this forum has enough knowledge to state that a video processor from the year 2000 could not be emulated using today's processors of which very little is still publicly known.  For all intents and purposes, the RSX outclasses the GS in every known statistic.  The only claims I've seen to incompatibility deal with specialized inline assembly code which could also be interpreted at the hypervisor level.



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Gnizmo said:
superchunk said:
First off sony already stated previously that they are working on full software emulation. In fact the current 80gb $500 model used software as it is.

They are dropping production costs again. Basically reduce the hardware connections on the PS3 to only that of the 40gb level.

This will give Sony a standard PS3 to produce, thus reducing costs even more. They have thrown in the 80gb vs the 40gb to soften the blow when the 80gb w/ software emulation goes bye bye permanently.

Once all of the other 40/80gb models are completely gone from retail and the new 80gb is profitable they will put out a firmware update that will allow software BC that is at least as good as the current emulation found on the 80gb now.

Then they will either do as I say above and also offer a larger storage PS3 or since you can easily just put your own HDD on the PS3 they may just continue with the one sku. Which should be good enough for *most* players.

Its really not that big of a deal and makes a lot of business sense.

 How does holding back this magical patch to make the systems BC make any business sense? Is there even a decent working PS2 emulater for the PC yet? The system is ridiculously hard to emulate, and there has been a host of very intelligent people trying to make it work for a long time. I don't think Sony is going to suddenly have the secret break through that makes it all possible in less than a quarter the time others have been working on it.

There's a HUGE difference between working with reverse engineering hardware and actually having the spec sheets, commands, and layout of commands readily available.  Also, the consoles are very similar (PS2/PS3) in architecture as opposed to the PC which has a completely different architecture using multiple memory controllers, I/O controllers, and other things that cannot easily be genericed into one set of code and run as efficiently as a console could.

 



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Andir said:

There's a HUGE difference between working with reverse engineering hardware and actually having the spec sheets, commands, and layout of commands readily available.  Also, the consoles are very similar (PS2/PS3) in architecture as opposed to the PC which has a completely different architecture using multiple memory controllers, I/O controllers, and other things that cannot easily be genericed into one set of code and run as efficiently as a console could.

 

 The PS2 and PS3 are not exactly similar. If they were you wouldn't need the extra parts to achieve emulation and developers wouldn't have spent the first year of the console's life bitching about how hard it is to program for the system. I'll grant you having the spec sheet would help a lot, but we are talking years and years of work. There has been success as well but not wide spread. There is an emulater that works with a handful of games but it runs those poorly typically. You are vastly under-estimating the complexity of trying to emulate the PS2.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

Gnizmo said:
Andir said:

There's a HUGE difference between working with reverse engineering hardware and actually having the spec sheets, commands, and layout of commands readily available.  Also, the consoles are very similar (PS2/PS3) in architecture as opposed to the PC which has a completely different architecture using multiple memory controllers, I/O controllers, and other things that cannot easily be genericed into one set of code and run as efficiently as a console could.

 

 The PS2 and PS3 are not exactly similar. If they were you wouldn't need the extra parts to achieve emulation and developers wouldn't have spent the first year of the console's life bitching about how hard it is to program for the system. I'll grant you having the spec sheet would help a lot, but we are talking years and years of work. There has been success as well but not wide spread. There is an emulater that works with a handful of games but it runs those poorly typically. You are vastly under-estimating the complexity of trying to emulate the PS2.

No, I'm not.  If what I read was correct, the issues stemming from complexities in the PS2 development dealt with having to use assembly code to write data to streams on the PS2's chipsets.  They had to do this to "activate" certain functions and pass data to appropriate buffers to be processed.  All this fine grained tuning is what makes it hard for someone reverse engineering it for the PC (which is a TOTALLY different instructin set.)  It however, would not be overwhelmingly difficult for someone at Sony who has intimate knowledge and/or documentation about these core function to write wrapper code to do the same thing.

Edit: the reason they don't release it now?  Maybe they expect the PS2 to live on a few years yet before announcing that it's pretty much obsolete and having to foot the bill on a console that's probably losing them money at the moment.  Sony has a plan for the long run in this, as evident by their latest announcements and E3 presentation.  They probably see that they are comfortably moving into a profitable space.  I'm guessing they anticipated an adoption rate eclipsing the PS2 and thus included the PS2 emulation in the PS3 using the EE/GS chips in order to spawn sales and get that money back from licenses of games.  Now that it's out and the response wasn't as expected, they pull out the BC, keep people buying the PS2, and slide in emulation support when they finally phase out the PS2 because it's not selling or it's expense is too much to maintain production.



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