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Forums - Sony Discussion - the Blu-ray thread, will go on untill hddvds death.

Smash_Brother on 20 November 2007

"iTunes sells their songs for 1/30th the price of hi-def films. That's not a valid comparison. It's like comparing beer keg sales to six pack sales."

Uhh, that's great, but we're talking about iTunes MOVIES, not music.

New iTunes movies are $14.99 while HDRAY movies cost anywhere from $20-25. That's $5-10 difference. That's not a beer keg to a six pack so much as a 2 liter to a 12oz.

And under no circumstances does it justify the iTunes store literally doubling+ the sales of HDRAY (even counting game discs instead of just Bluray movies), especially when you factor in all the hoopla about how "customers need to own a physical version of their media".

Also, didn't Sony and MS both say that they wanted the set-top box role, where customers would download video content from the internet to play on their PS360? I find it odd that they're squaring off in a format war when they both said they'd be backing online downloads themselves, but that's neither here nor there, really. 

"BTW, link or the sales (for all three) didn't happen. "

Of course: 

http://cap-america.livejournal.com/42539.html

He got the iTunes figures from Apple and the BluRay/HDDVD numbers from http://www.videobusiness.com/

It's hard to track down the exact numbers, but Disney has sold over 2,000,000 iTunes movies (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070509-disney-itunes-movie-sales-prove-potency-of-format-pricing.html) and 23,000,000 TV shows, and this was from back in April (I don't have more recent numbers).

Also, iTunes HD will be rolling out sometime in the near future, offering HD movies for download in addition to the regular versions. 



"I mean, c'mon, Viva Pinata, a game with massive marketing, didn't sell worth a damn to the "sophisticated" 360 audience, despite near-universal praise--is that a sign that 360 owners are a bunch of casual ignoramuses that can't get their heads around a 'gardening' sim? Of course not. So let's please stop trying to micro-analyze one game out of hundreds and using it as the poster child for why good, non-1st party, games can't sell on Wii. (Everyone frequenting this site knows this is nonsense, and yet some of you just can't let it go because it's the only scab you have left to pick at after all your other "Wii will phail1!!1" straw men arguments have been put to the torch.)" - exindguy on Boom Blocks

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LordTheNightKnight on 20 November 2007
Smash_Brother said:

"iTunes sells their songs for 1/30th the price of hi-def films. That's not a valid comparison. It's like comparing beer keg sales to six pack sales."

Uhh, that's great, but we're talking about iTunes MOVIES, not music.

New iTunes movies are $14.99 while HDRAY movies cost anywhere from $20-25. That's $5-10 difference. That's not a beer keg to a six pack so much as a 2 liter to a 12oz.

And under no circumstances does it justify the iTunes store literally doubling+ the sales of HDRAY (even counting game discs instead of just Bluray movies), especially when you factor in all the hoopla about how "customers need to own a physical version of their media".

Also, didn't Sony and MS both say that they wanted the set-top box role, where customers would download video content from the internet to play on their PS360? I find it odd that they're squaring off in a format war when they both said they'd be backing online downloads themselves, but that's neither here nor there, really.

"BTW, link or the sales (for all three) didn't happen. "

Of course:

http://cap-america.livejournal.com/42539.html

He got the iTunes figures from Apple and the BluRay/HDDVD numbers from http://www.videobusiness.com/

It's hard to track down the exact numbers, but Disney has sold over 2,000,000 iTunes movies (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070509-disney-itunes-movie-sales-prove-potency-of-format-pricing.html) and 23,000,000 TV shows, and this was from back in April (I don't have more recent numbers).

Also, iTunes HD will be rolling out sometime in the near future, offering HD movies for download in addition to the regular versions.


Except you did not write those sales are for iTunes movies specifically.

In that note, iTunes has a much larger install base, so it's still too soon to call. Plus even if sales top discs, that doesn't mean people will stop wanting hard copies entirely. 



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

LordTheNightKnight on 20 November 2007

BTW, the reason the news about the 51GB disc is relevant, is not just for HD-DVD, but for all optical discs. This is about to be the first one to get on the market that breaks the two layer barrier. Now that we know it's no longer a lab pipe dream, who knows what comes next. Plus hopefully blu-ray multi-layered discs won't be far behind.

Plus here's news that good for high definition, period.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/11/20/displaysearch-numbers-show-global-tv-sales-growth/

DisplaySearch numbers show global TV sales growth

Posted Nov 20th 2007 3:51PM by Steven Kim
Research firm DisplaySearch compiled its global numbers for Q3 2007 and found unit sales up 18% and revenues up 17%, quarter-over-quarter. People all over the planet are buying sets, and flat panel sales are particularly strong. The sales aren't just in small panels, either: even though the average panel size is 27-inches, panels in the 40 - 47-inch class experienced the fastest growth in both units and revenue and now account for almost one-third of TV revenues. Not surprisingly, the "1080" moniker is hot in Japan and North America, posting huge gains for both LCD, plasma and microdisplay sets that flaunt the spec. Manufacturers and retailers have to be happy about the this -- the premium cost of 1080 sets helped to hold the decrease in year-over-year average sale price (ASP) to just 1%. More numbers than you can shake a stick at after the link.

DISPLAYSEARCH REPORTS DOUBLE-DIGIT GROWTH IN GLOBAL TV MARKET

 



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

makingmusic476 on 21 November 2007
LordTheNightKnight said:
Saiyar said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
http://www.dvdtown.com/news/disney-approves-51gb-hd-dvd/4936

Disney approves 51GB HD DVD

Disney and other members of the DVD Forum has approved a 51GB version of the HD DVD disc format.

The reason this even makes news is because of the ongoing format war. As you know, in war, every little change in each camp is interesting because it might indicate a change in stance.

Normally Blu-ray supporters (That are not neutral) do not cast a vote when the DVD Forum approves or suggest new specifications to its HD DVD format. The interesting part is that Disney (a strong Blu-ray supporter) voted for the twin and 51GB triple layer HD DVD discs at a comity meeting in September.

Many speculates that this change of interest from Disney may indicate that the studio is starting to show feelings for HD DVD. Perhaps, just in case, if Blu-ray doesn't make it to the finish line.

In the end it may be of no importance and it probably isn't but as said in a war you never know.

Lastly, we are currently talking with the DVD Forum to get more details on the new formats so stay tuned for that one.

Source: DVD Forum report from the meeting.

========================================================

Okay, what the f'ing hell? I know Disney co-developed the interactive layer for HD-DVD, but I didn't think they'd have any interest by now.

Again, this is about the weirdness of this news, not whether it's good news for HD-DVD (that depends on whether current players can read the third layer, which has not been answered yet).
When it comes to HD-DVD votes on the dvd forum Disney have always voted (unlike other BDA supports who abstain) and they always vote inline with the HD-DVD group. I guess they want to remain on good terms with the entire forum.

The article explicitly states that non-neutral members of the forum, including Disney, stay out of HD-DVD votes, so this is an unusual move for them.


I think it's a back-up plan. Disney is the one studio to really make use of Blu-Ray's extra storage space and higher bitrates, and it was one of the reasons they chose it over HD. They don't lose anything by voting, and they probably just want a larger capacity HD disc to fall back on should more situations like Paramount suddenly dropping Blu-Ray arise.



makingmusic476 on 21 November 2007
Smash_Brother said:
In the battle between Blu Ray and HDDVD, the victor will be online media distribution:

iTunes
1,300,000
From period: Sept. 12, 2006 - Jan 10, 2007

HD-DVD
650,000
From period: March 31, 2006 - March 9, 2007

Blu-Ray
675,000
From period: March 3, 2003 - March 9, 2007

If they can't even outsell the blasted iTunes store when HDDVD and Blu Ray sales are COMBINED, what chance do they have of pushing into the mainstream and being adopted as a new standard?

The upgrade from VHS to DVD made sense: there was a HUGE increase in quality on existing television hardware, DVDs are smaller, don't wear out like VHS and offered a bevy of features like menus, deleted scenes, etc.

If you need to buy a more expensive TV, a more expensive player and more expensive media for a marginal increase in quality, then people aren't going to make the jump, and the fact that people are buying more movies for their iPods than their HDTVs says to me that this is definitely the case.

HDDVD and BluRay will be squabbling and bickering until the end, completely unaware of the massive form of online distribution approaching from the shadows.

CDs still outsell iTunes. ;)

Once the majority of the world has the internet speed necessary to download a standard definition movie, let alone a high definition movie, in just a few minutes, let me know. 



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makingmusic476 on 21 November 2007
LordTheNightKnight said:

BTW, the reason the news about the 51GB disc is relevant, is not just for HD-DVD, but for all optical discs. This is about to be the first one to get on the market that breaks the two layer barrier. Now that we know it's no longer a lab pipe dream, who knows what comes next. Plus hopefully blu-ray multi-layered discs won't be far behind.

Plus here's news that good for high definition, period.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/11/20/displaysearch-numbers-show-global-tv-sales-growth/

DisplaySearch numbers show global TV sales growth

Posted Nov 20th 2007 3:51PM by Steven Kim
Research firm DisplaySearch compiled its global numbers for Q3 2007 and found unit sales up 18% and revenues up 17%, quarter-over-quarter. People all over the planet are buying sets, and flat panel sales are particularly strong. The sales aren't just in small panels, either: even though the average panel size is 27-inches, panels in the 40 - 47-inch class experienced the fastest growth in both units and revenue and now account for almost one-third of TV revenues. Not surprisingly, the "1080" moniker is hot in Japan and North America, posting huge gains for both LCD, plasma and microdisplay sets that flaunt the spec. Manufacturers and retailers have to be happy about the this -- the premium cost of 1080 sets helped to hold the decrease in year-over-year average sale price (ASP) to just 1%. More numbers than you can shake a stick at after the link.

DISPLAYSEARCH REPORTS DOUBLE-DIGIT GROWTH IN GLOBAL TV MARKET

 


Blu-Ray has had working prototypes of 100gb discs for a while now, with 200gb discs at the same stage in development as HD's 51gb disc, as far as I know.



makingmusic476 on 21 November 2007
davygee said:

Okay, it's getting intereting. HD-DVD is selling alot better both in the player sales and discs. Blu-ray isn't selling that well with the standalone players, but are generally still selling 2:1 on the software sales (in the US) anyway.

Toshiba have had their ridiculously priced A2 player at $98 on the market and they are sold out and are now selling the A3 for around $199, so they most certainly are coming down in price. Actually they are way down from the original $499 pricetag last year....so a generous $300 drop. But can Toshiba maintain the low costing of the players? They are obviously making a loss at the moment just to get their players on the market. Now Blu-ray are fighting back. Not only has the subsidised PS3 been reduced to $399 a huge $200 from it's release price only 12 months ago, but the standalone players are now coming down, dropping from around $1000 only last year to $399 and at the moment you can pick up a Samsung player for $299 (if you can find it in stock).

IMHO, HD-DVD has caught up a bit and their cheap A2 and now A3 players are shifting units and will undoubtably push more disc sales as well. But I reckon Toshiba has placed all their eggs in the one basket. I reckon that they could very well cheapen their brand name on the market place. It seems that Samsung has changed places with Toshiba with the reasoning that Samsung used to be one of the cheapest makes on the market, their product wasn't particularly brilliant, it was good and it was cheap, now Samsung products are better built, aesthetically look better and are now higher priced, but not above the Panasonics, Pioneers and Sony's. Toshiba costs on the highstreet have come down all around the board. They are now beginning to appear in every shop and can be found at a much cheaper level than Sony, Panasonic and Pioneer and tend to beeven cheaper than Samsung. They need to watch out or they will be relegated to bargain basement product bin rather than being a desirable make.

Blu-ray on the other hand, need to get a grip and utilise the advantage that they have. They need to bring prices down considerably across the board. Personally, I reckon an entry level player at $199 is reasonable with better players coming in at $299 right up to $499 say. They need to push the studios they have backing them to release more titles and big titles. Tell Disney to get Toy Story and a few classic Disney films out early 2008. Push New Line is possible to release Lord of the Rings onto the new 100Gb BR discs with all the trimmings. Have a chat with Lucas and Spielberg and try and prove their backing with releases of Star Wars, Indiana Jones and ET. But more importantly, have discussions with Warner...and even if it costs BR or Sony or whoever, they need to get Warner to push more BR or become exclusive. The longer this battle goes on, the harder it will be for BR.


I had originaly predicted a $199-250 Sony S300 for Black Friday, but once the Blck Friday ads start showing up a few weeks ago, I was sadly proven wrong. 

However, considering the fact that the BF ads at the time showed the Samsung selling at $399 with a bunch of free movies, but it's currently selling for far less (and even the S300 is selling far below it's $499 MSRP), prices may still drop drastically for BF, though they won't be advertised as such, as the BF ads have already gone to the printers.



libellule on 21 November 2007

how large is the user base of the 2 format actually counring and not counting the PS3 ?



Time to Work !

LordTheNightKnight on 21 November 2007
makingmusic476 said:
LordTheNightKnight said:

BTW, the reason the news about the 51GB disc is relevant, is not just for HD-DVD, but for all optical discs. This is about to be the first one to get on the market that breaks the two layer barrier. Now that we know it's no longer a lab pipe dream, who knows what comes next. Plus hopefully blu-ray multi-layered discs won't be far behind.

Plus here's news that good for high definition, period.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/11/20/displaysearch-numbers-show-global-tv-sales-growth/

DisplaySearch numbers show global TV sales growth

Posted Nov 20th 2007 3:51PM by Steven Kim
Research firm DisplaySearch compiled its global numbers for Q3 2007 and found unit sales up 18% and revenues up 17%, quarter-over-quarter. People all over the planet are buying sets, and flat panel sales are particularly strong. The sales aren't just in small panels, either: even though the average panel size is 27-inches, panels in the 40 - 47-inch class experienced the fastest growth in both units and revenue and now account for almost one-third of TV revenues. Not surprisingly, the "1080" moniker is hot in Japan and North America, posting huge gains for both LCD, plasma and microdisplay sets that flaunt the spec. Manufacturers and retailers have to be happy about the this -- the premium cost of 1080 sets helped to hold the decrease in year-over-year average sale price (ASP) to just 1%. More numbers than you can shake a stick at after the link.

DISPLAYSEARCH REPORTS DOUBLE-DIGIT GROWTH IN GLOBAL TV MARKET

 


Blu-Ray has had working prototypes of 100gb discs for a while now, with 200gb discs at the same stage in development as HD's 51gb disc, as far as I know.


They aren't market ready yet, or else the BDA would have proudly announced it. Right now, more than two layers coming to the market is limited to these HD-DVDs and VMDs (which I forgot about for a bit). Anything else is still in lab testing stages. 



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

davygee on 21 November 2007
LordTheNightKnight said:

They aren't market ready yet, or else the BDA would have proudly announced it. Right now, more than two layers coming to the market is limited to these HD-DVDs and VMDs (which I forgot about for a bit). Anything else is still in lab testing stages.


This applies to the 51Gb HD-DVD discs as well.

I wouldn't be surprised though to see the 51Gb HD-DVD discs and 100Gb Blu-ray discs being used at some stage next year.

Obviously we all need to know whether the current BR and HD-DVD players can cope with reading 3 or more layers per disc. 



Prediction (June 12th 2017)

Permanent pricedrop for both PS4 Slim and PS4 Pro in October.

PS4 Slim $249 (October 2017)

PS4 Pro $349 (October 2017)