As another note, I'd like to take a moment to discuss how the "games as art" dialogue has evolved.

While there is also a legitimate discussion to be had on the topic, I've long suspected that "games as art" was a psychological defense, much the way Rockstar Games applied it with their PS2 GTA games. Do people disapprove of the games you play (or make?) It's art, you can't criticize it. The same basic principle has been applied here: games like Metal Gear, Final Fantasy and Bioshock (single player, story driven experiences) are no longer driving the industry. They aren't as popular, either, compared to games like Halo, Wii Sports, Call of Duty 4, and Animal Crossing.

So if one were a lover of such single player, story driven games, how would one convince themselves that their games of choice are factually better, even if they are no longer as popular? You'd say that the games you like are art and therefore are above the rabble, regardless of sales and regardless of how popular or unpopular they may be.

I'm not saying everyone uses this defensive mechanism, nor am I saying it applies to all games. But just look at the dialogue here -- just look! We've gone from asking "can games be art?" just a few months ago to using the phrase "artistic games" as if obviously these games are art. The whole discussion has just been swept aside, and I suspect this defensive mechanic will become more and more empassioned as these types of games become more and more marginalized.

We will quickly move from "are games art?" to "games are art" to "games are art, and specifically the games I like are art" to "because the games I like are art, and the games you like are not, it does not matter how much your games sell because my games are better."

I'll submit once again that the most "artistic" games I've ever played are Chess and Go, and both of those games are multiplayer and have no story whatsoever.

lets compare the amount of casual to hardcore games released by nintendo.  then refute my statement.

and of those hardcore which have released recently how many are high profile? (pokemon and mario kart are casual, whether u like it or not)

*casual is not a bad thing.  a bad game is a bad thing.

NO pokemon and mario kart target both audiences. You see this because almost every Core nintendo fan on this site has mario kart, and there are countless threads on this. Pokemon is very popular and just look at the hits on this site.

ALright here is your list  since you wanted it.

Super Mario Galxay-Targets Mostly Core, but also appeals to casuals.

Metroid Prime 3- Core

Super Smash Bros Brawl- Both but mostly Core

LoZ:Tp- Core

Mario Kart WIi- Both

Wii Play-Casual

Wii Fit- Casual

Wii Sports- Both, but mostly casual

MP8- Casual

Mario Strikers Charged- Both

Link's Crossbow Training- BOth

Super Paper Mario- Same as smg Core

Big Brain Academy- Casual

Pokemon Battle Revolution- Both, but mostly casual in this case.

Endless Ocean- Casual, but has some core following.

Fire Emblem- Core(Probably the most core this gen if you count core as difficult)

Wario Ware Smooth Moves- Casual

Excite Truck- Both, but I would say mostly core.

Battalion Wars 2- Core

DK: Barrel Blast- Casual

Mario Super SLuggers- Both

Wario Land- Core

Disaster Day of Crisis- Core

Casual-9

Core-10

Both-4

Now that is about equal right?

Lets look at ds.

Pokemon Diamond and Pearl- BOth

Phantom Hourglass- Core

New Super Mario Bros- Core

Nintendogs- Casual

Mario Kart DS- Both

Brain Training- Casual

More Brain training- Casual

Mario Party- Casual

Animal Crossing- Both

Pokemon Mystery Dungeon- Core( Mystery Dungeon Games are Harder than most genres)

Mystery Dungeon 2- Core

Flash Focus-Casual

Super Mario 64-Core

Profesor Layton- Core

Metroid Prime Hunters- Core

Yoshi Island-Core

Big Brain Academy- Casual

Tetris- Both

Pokemon Ranger:Batonage- Both

Advance Wars: Day of Ruin- Core

Advance Wars: Dual Strike- Core

English training- Casual

Elite Beat Agents-Both

Clubhouse Games- Casual

Soma Bringer- Core

Hotel Dusk- Core

Comon Sense Training- Casual

Kirby Squeak Squad- Core

Mario & Luigi 2 Partners in TIme- Core

Mario Vs Donkey Kong 2- Core

Donkey Kong Jungle CLimber- ?

Diddy Kong Racing DS- Both

Wario Ware- Casual

Pokemon Ranger- Both

Super Princess Peach-Both

Kirby: Canvas Cave- Core

Mario Hoops 3 on 3- Both

Picross DS- Both

Starfox Command- Core

Metroid Prime Pinball- Core

Jump Ultimate Stars- Core

Planet Puzzle League- Casual

Magical Starsign- Core

I don't feel like counting all of them, but I bet the results are similar. If you feel like counting it go ahead.

Edit: Nvm I counted them

Both-12

Core-20

Casual-11

Now is that Really as bad as you say it is?

Luckily casual games are a problem just for wii. :) There is no need for the rest of us to be worried about crappy games taking over the industry.

Btw,

Is it ok to say "snobcore"? If so, I guess "tardcore" is ok too?

Snobcores are more dangerous to the industry than casuals.

The most artistic games I've played are Tetris and Katamari. In fact, in those games you're making art while you play. The gameplay and the art are the same thing. They're amazing.

I agree with Bod too about chess and go.

What's funny I consider Boom Blox more of what gaming as an art is than any FF game or MGS4.

I am a HUGE FF fan. Don't get me wrong, the stories are art, the sprites/models are art, and the music is art but what is not very artistic is the gameplay. Afterall the gameplay is what separates the games from all other artforms.

There is talent to creating good gameplay. Super Mario Bros. is not too different from other games of the time period in tech, what really makes the game is the spot on controls combined with all the other things.

You know this happens every time some form of entertainment/artform grows beyond its roots and becomes both populist and 'taken over by the suits' to coin a phrase?

Watch the nice little scene from Almost Famous where Lester talks about the changes in the music industry and how they're killing it for a nice summary of how many 'hardcore' fans feel when this happens. It sounds like how you're feeling about the games industry to me. Unfortunately that's what it is now, an industry that can generate billions in revenue and make people very, very rich.

Personally I think what many people miss is that its often the case that certain games are not selling less but that others are selling more.

I think story driven games and games aiming higher in terms of art or pushing the medium will continue to come. But they will not dominate nor will they outnumber the volume of more casual / fun / copycat games. So long as games like MGS4 or Bioshock or GTA IV get made I don't really care if they sell less than Wii Beach Party. And in truth I want games like Wii Sports, too, or Raving Rabbits. My kids love them and they're fun to play with them. And when they're in bed then I can sit down and play some GTA IV or MGS 4.

Its the nature of how a medium evolves when it grows in sales and market penetration.

There will still be developers who want to take what's been accomplished in games as diverse as Deus Ex, System Shock, Ico, Okami, etc. and push it further. Not everyone is going to 'jump ship' and start making party games using Wii mote to throw frisbees or whatever. I think that is the fear though that lies behind your (understandable and I suspect fairly common) reaction. You're worried that not enough content will be made for you and too much for those more casual, less hardcore gamers.

Well, its a fair worry. There surely will be even more developers pushing out 'safe' games carefully aimed at known demographics and preferences (for example Halo 3 is to me the very definition of a 'safe' game even if it seems hardcore and sells lots - it didn't take one risk at all and was designed in the same manner as a summer blockbuster movie). Even more there will be a glut of smaller, copycat games simply aiming to copy a previous hit and provide 'more of the same' whether on Wii or whatever.

Even 360 and PS3 (particularly 360 as its been longer on market) don't escape this as 'hardcore' platforms. Look at a site like Metacritic and take a long look at the volume of dross for the 360 next to the big hitters and good stuff. It's the nature of the game. For every Mass Effect or COD4 you're going to get a lot of Turok's and the like.

There is also a resurgence of what I call 'pure' games - i.e there is no real story simply incredibly well tuned and hopefully fun dynamics. I look to titles like Super Stardust HD here, or Pixel Juice Monsters. Super Mario Galaxy (pls don't argue Princess Peach getting captured again is a story!) is in my view the most polished, high profile example I can think of. In many ways the Wii is most associated with this but I look to great PSN / Live examples too.

So you're right about one thing - we should stop thinking hardcore and casual and start thinking good game / bad game.

But we shouldn't narrow down the genres. Pixel Juice Monsters is a good game as is HD Super Startdust. So is Super Mario Galaxy and Wii Sports. Let's have good games be they story driven and striving for art, polished slick blockbusters like Halo, fun games like Super Galaxy or simply fun diversions like Super Startdust - and let's ignore the bad and relegate it to the dustbin where they belong.

As for the changes to the videogame landscape. Well, I think they're inevitable - even Lester knew that.

Those hardcore gamers don't seem to like variety in the game selections. The problem I think is that the "perceived bad games" by the hardcores have received much more attention than the PS2 generation, where the PS2 has its own considerable selection of "perceived bad games".

But still, the more diversity in the games, the more stable is the industry. It's a matter of risk dispersing.

So Im wondering how many days till this guy gets banned. Pretty much the most active troll around these days...

In 1998 we got Starcraft, Unreal, Half-Life, Fallout 2, Grim Fandango, Starsiege: Tribes, Thief: The Dark Project, Metal Gear Solid, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Radiant Silvergun, Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and many others. I don't think I've seen that many quality releases in a single year at any point this console generation or even the last console generation. I think that hardcore gaming is in a decline because almost all of the best games released now-a-days are merely uninspired sequels.