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Forums - Sony - My altered view of MGS4 now that I've beaten it.

Bladeneo on 18 June 2008
Astrodust said:
Ail said:
There's more than 5 hours of gameplay.
I finished the game in 26 hours so personally I had 18 hours of gameplay if you count around 8 hours of cut scenes.

Now I am on my seond play through in hard mode ( Big Boss hard) and skipping every cut scenes and with no continue. I am closing on 3 hours and still in Act2

You can beat the game in 4-5 hours but you need to be a real pro ( required for the hardest emblem).

 

 You must be terrible at video games. My roommate beat the game on the second hardest difficulty and the final play time was 18.5 hours. He actually finished the game at 17 hours but after the final cutscenes and credits the clock stood at 18.5. So I guess there is a 90 minute cutscene. Check your save time after the final boss and then the time after all the credits are done. 90 minutes ouch. He is a PS3 fan and even he said he only played for about 7 hours including dying and restarting. I really don't know if throwing in a mediocre multiplayer gives this game a 10.

Wait wait, so embracing a game and choosing perhaps to, I dont know, EXPLORE the levels for things Kojima has undoubtedly hidden around the place instead of going straight to fucking destination A now results in being terrible at games?

Look, MGS4 isn't a sandbox game but GTA Isn't the only game where more play time = better experience.

 



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The_vagabond7 on 18 June 2008

Man, some asses got kicked up in this topic. Prof crab lays it out nicely, as do some nice examples of less is more. I came in to throw in a few more cents, but it looks like DTGs opinion that MGS and Xenogears are rich pieces of media far surpassing movies or literature because they are long and and wordy, have already been beaten to a pulp. No fret though, he no doubt will ignore this and then go on to say it again in another topic in a few days.



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dawve24 on 18 June 2008

I am still in shock that some people enjoyed the meryl/akiba proposal scene.



  

shio on 18 June 2008
rocketpig said:

Breaking the fourth wall is one of my favorite parts of the MGS series. IMO, Kojima is at his best when he goes all postmodern and starts doing crazy shit with his games, constantly surprising the player with things they don't expect. Inversely, he's at his worst when he tries to implement philosophy and dialogue into them.

Exactly! Kojima's best stories were when he tried to keep things simple: Snatcher, Metal Gear Solid 1 (I have yet not played Policenauts, shame on me!).

He does not know how to work on deep, complex structures in narrative and storytelling in a videogame, especially when he barelly uses interactivity and doesn't know how to implement the concepts and story in the gameplay.

 

Plaupius said:
DTG said:

Yes, I have seen Apocalypse now though I'm not sure if it was the Redux version. However most of the dialogue minus the one with the French only lasted a couple of minutes until they moved on to the next scene. Like I said, name me a movie with a 1 hour scene similar to MGS2's devoted soley to the exploration of philosophical themes. The last 10 minutes of 2001 was extremely subtle and so I really can't consider it on level with MGS which lays it's philosophy out to you in words. School books and the education system rely directly on words and concise explanations to impart knowledge, if text books began being subtle implications of things they would be mostly useless in education. It's the most effective way of presenting knowledge and teaching someone.

 

Are you familiar with the concept of "sometimes less is more"? If we're talking about the depth of the storyline and skill employed in conveying it, teaching is the complete wrong analogue. And even regarding teaching, do you know Zen koans and how they are used to teach? Now, if it is Kojima's purpose to teach the gamers about philosophy, then why not do it using the means of the media? Why do it in a movie-kinda way? That does in no way warrant such high praises as he's getting.

In my opinion, and I'm not alone on this, the highest level of storytelling does not so much explain as it evokes: you can't explain how to feel, for example. Kids have the age of asking questions about everything and wanting everything to be explained to them, but we grow up. I'm an adult and I actually enjoy using my cognitive capabilities to figure out things by myself, and if I'm not specifically requiesting to be spoon-fed information, it is just boring. Even moreso when the thing that I'm fed is not of gourmet quality, as is the case with every single game in existance. Thankfully, not all games try to force their ideology down my throat.

Thank you! I have debated this argument several times with DTG and other MGS fans. And I'll say this again: Kojima does not know how implement philosiphies, complexity and story in the gameplay.

If any gamer wants to see a great implementation you should play 'Planescape: Torment'. The way the concepts of immortality and punishment/redemption are so intricately related to both story and gameplay is nothing short of masterpiece.

 

 



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JUICE on 18 June 2008

The only thing I hated was how the mighty patriots was pwned by a little girl and a dead girl. That's just sad.



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rocketpig on 18 June 2008
DTG said:
rocketpig said:
DTG said:
sieanr said:
rocketpig said:
Yes, I found that bit about Johnny very annoying.

Personally, I think MGS should end with 4 unless they want to do prequels. We saw Snake's story, end it there. That's what we cared about.

It would be like Lucas trying to transition Shia Lebouf into the main role of the Indiana Jones series. Indy dies with Harrison. Let it go. It was a good run, we all had a good time, now go develop a new idea.

When he crapped his pants at the beginning I knew I was going hate him, and that initial instinct was right.

Another scene I couldn't stand was Otacon crying over Naomi through the Mark 3. Not only was the writing terrible, but the voice acting was ridiculous. And the fact that he was crying over her through a computer display struck me as pathetic.

The_vagabond7 said:

Alright, to clarify, I have beaten MGS 1/2 and gotten about half way through MGS3. I am a fan of the series, I just don't feel the need to suck a dick because it's attached to Kojima.

 

MGS fans are among the most pretentious of all Videogame fans because kojima throws in something that resembles philosophy. It's like talking to those kids in school that listen to really really crappy music and claim you're just stupid because you don't "get it". I get it alright, I'm just not impressed.

I agree with just about all of this.

I generally like the series, but there is plenty about it that I can't stand. One of those things is the fanbase who gushes over the story. I can only imagine that these people do so because they haven't experienced great films or novels. Take, for example, the guy in this thread who claimed MGS has a better story that great works of literature or oscar films. I actually feel kinda sorry for him.

Overall I'd probably rate MGS3 as the best in the franchise, followed by MGS1 then MGS4 and 2.

 

Actually I'm a huge movie fan and have watched hundreds upon hundreds of films from various countries and in various genres. Not a single film however has ever matched MGS2 in terms of depth of it's story. MGS4 is similar except for the horrible Hollywood inspired ending. The reasons films cannot match MGS is because they have a two hour runtime and so the focus is on action and pacing without the time to indulge in philosophical dialogue as MGS games do. They cannot go as in-depth with their storytelling and do not afford the time to divulge details.

DTG, you really need to respond to my Apocalypse Now post... I know how you love to dance around "interactive media" and terms like that but if you really believe in MGS so strongly, you should be able to take on Coppola without a problem.

Honestly, I doubt you've even watched the movie so you won't even understand how heavily Kojima ripped the personalities from the film. Please, for the love of God, watch Redux.

If you come back and tell me that somehow MGS2 or 4 is more powerful, just say it and we'll be done with this conversation.

Yes, I have seen Apocalypse now though I'm not sure if it was the Redux version. However most of the dialogue minus the one with the French only lasted a couple of minutes until they moved on to the next scene. Like I said, name me a movie with a 1 hour scene similar to MGS2's devoted soley to the exploration of philosophical themes. The last 10 minutes of 2001 was extremely subtle and so I really can't consider it on level with MGS which lays it's philosophy out to you in words. School books and the education system rely directly on words and concise explanations to impart knowledge, if text books began being subtle implications of things they would be mostly useless in education. It's the most effective way of presenting knowledge and teaching someone.

 

You're missing the bloody point.

The entirety of Apocolypse Now is devoted to a philosophy, they just didn't come out and tell you bluntly what it is. Believe it or not, it's actually the same underlying theme that Kojima runs through the entire MGS series.

If you can't see that, I don't know what to say. Every action in that movie is telling you something, you just have to look a little more closely because it's the characters that are telling you what it is through their actions, not by Coppola or Conrad explaining it in plain terms.




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rocketpig on 18 June 2008
alpha_dk said:
DTG said:
rocketpig said:

DTG, you really need to respond to my Apocalypse Now post... I know how you love to dance around "interactive media" and terms like that but if you really believe in MGS so strongly, you should be able to take on Coppola without a problem.

Honestly, I doubt you've even watched the movie so you won't even understand how heavily Kojima ripped the personalities from the film. Please, for the love of God, watch Redux.

If you come back and tell me that somehow MGS2 or 4 is more powerful, just say it and we'll be done with this conversation.

Yes, I have seen Apocalypse now though I'm not sure if it was the Redux version. However most of the dialogue minus the one with the French only lasted a couple of minutes until they moved on to the next scene. Like I said, name me a movie with a 1 hour scene similar to MGS2's devoted soley to the exploration of philosophical themes. The last 10 minutes of 2001 was extremely subtle and so I really can't consider it on level with MGS which lays it's philosophy out to you in words. School books and the education system rely directly on words and concise explanations to impart knowledge, if text books began being subtle implications of things they would be mostly useless in education. It's the most effective way of presenting knowledge and teaching someone.

 

So now anything that DOESN'T explain it to you in long, drawn out terms doesn't count?  That hardly makes sense.

Tell me; what do you think of the following short story (in it's entirety)

For sale: baby shoes, never worn
(By Hemingway)

Now tell me: What is the point of the story?  What is a potential backstory, and why should you (and I do, at least) feel sad upon reading it?

Because most people would be able to answer all of the above questions, and that is only from 6 words.

Contrast that to a longer method, which would be something like this (spoiler'd because it is obviously only my interpretation of the piece, which is obviously not encompassing nearly as much as the original did.  This was done on purpose, because that's basically what DTG is saying is 'good' writing):

A pair of parents are going to have a baby.  They have been trying for ages, and are ecstatic when they are successful.  They buy everything they can for their child-to-be, from clothes to a room to everything else a young child would need.  Months pass, and eventually the mother-to-be goes into labor.  After hours of work, the child is stillborn.

I know which I consider better writing; and I see every reason why Hemingway's version should not only be able to be compared to my version, but should also be able to be declared unambiguously better.  Would you care to explain?

Wow, what an excellent example.

 




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FunKrusher on 18 June 2008

I applaud you for your critical assement of the game. I still want to play it for myself and watch all the cutscenes for myself. But the second half of the game sounds like standard MGS fanfare, a lot of talking cool cutscenes, and reduced gameplay.

Although in the former games shit got pretty intense towards the end.

I mean in MGS3 fighting Volgin, getting chased by the Shagohald, fighting the Shagohald, chased by soldiers, sneaking through the forrest, fighting Boss! Dare I say MGS 3 had the best closing game sequence of the series, followed by MGS1 and MGS2 (closing sequence) was Eh... although fighting all the Metal Gear Rays was pretty bad ass.



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DTG on 18 June 2008
rocketpig said:
DTG said:
rocketpig said:
DTG said:
sieanr said:
rocketpig said:
Yes, I found that bit about Johnny very annoying.

Personally, I think MGS should end with 4 unless they want to do prequels. We saw Snake's story, end it there. That's what we cared about.

It would be like Lucas trying to transition Shia Lebouf into the main role of the Indiana Jones series. Indy dies with Harrison. Let it go. It was a good run, we all had a good time, now go develop a new idea.

When he crapped his pants at the beginning I knew I was going hate him, and that initial instinct was right.

Another scene I couldn't stand was Otacon crying over Naomi through the Mark 3. Not only was the writing terrible, but the voice acting was ridiculous. And the fact that he was crying over her through a computer display struck me as pathetic.

The_vagabond7 said:

Alright, to clarify, I have beaten MGS 1/2 and gotten about half way through MGS3. I am a fan of the series, I just don't feel the need to suck a dick because it's attached to Kojima.

 

MGS fans are among the most pretentious of all Videogame fans because kojima throws in something that resembles philosophy. It's like talking to those kids in school that listen to really really crappy music and claim you're just stupid because you don't "get it". I get it alright, I'm just not impressed.

I agree with just about all of this.

I generally like the series, but there is plenty about it that I can't stand. One of those things is the fanbase who gushes over the story. I can only imagine that these people do so because they haven't experienced great films or novels. Take, for example, the guy in this thread who claimed MGS has a better story that great works of literature or oscar films. I actually feel kinda sorry for him.

Overall I'd probably rate MGS3 as the best in the franchise, followed by MGS1 then MGS4 and 2.

 

Actually I'm a huge movie fan and have watched hundreds upon hundreds of films from various countries and in various genres. Not a single film however has ever matched MGS2 in terms of depth of it's story. MGS4 is similar except for the horrible Hollywood inspired ending. The reasons films cannot match MGS is because they have a two hour runtime and so the focus is on action and pacing without the time to indulge in philosophical dialogue as MGS games do. They cannot go as in-depth with their storytelling and do not afford the time to divulge details.

DTG, you really need to respond to my Apocalypse Now post... I know how you love to dance around "interactive media" and terms like that but if you really believe in MGS so strongly, you should be able to take on Coppola without a problem.

Honestly, I doubt you've even watched the movie so you won't even understand how heavily Kojima ripped the personalities from the film. Please, for the love of God, watch Redux.

If you come back and tell me that somehow MGS2 or 4 is more powerful, just say it and we'll be done with this conversation.

Yes, I have seen Apocalypse now though I'm not sure if it was the Redux version. However most of the dialogue minus the one with the French only lasted a couple of minutes until they moved on to the next scene. Like I said, name me a movie with a 1 hour scene similar to MGS2's devoted soley to the exploration of philosophical themes. The last 10 minutes of 2001 was extremely subtle and so I really can't consider it on level with MGS which lays it's philosophy out to you in words. School books and the education system rely directly on words and concise explanations to impart knowledge, if text books began being subtle implications of things they would be mostly useless in education. It's the most effective way of presenting knowledge and teaching someone.

 

You're missing the bloody point.

The entirety of Apocolypse Now is devoted to a philosophy, they just didn't come out and tell you bluntly what it is. Believe it or not, it's actually the same underlying theme that Kojima runs through the entire MGS series.

If you can't see that, I don't know what to say. Every action in that movie is telling you something, you just have to look a little more closely because it's the characters that are telling you what it is through their actions, not by Coppola or Conrad explaining it in plain terms.

 

I consider that sloppy storytelling. The fact that the message is so vague and hidden means different people will come to different interpretations. You can find meaning in virtually everything if you want to but it doesn't mean it was meant to be there. The point you and others are missing is that kind of storytelling would not hold it's own in an educational setting because it doesn't "teach" you anything. In the case of MGS Kojima is the teacher, you are the student and MGS is the text book. It's meant to teach the player and so being vague or interpretational doesn't suffice. Imagine had Neitzche written short stories with interpretive characters his work would then be almost worthless because philosophy is a very percise and descreptive field where the writer must express himself extremely precisely through the use of words.

Kojima is IMO one of the greatest creative thinkers of the past century and though he is underrated today in the future when his political and social predictions presented in MGS come true people will take notice and remember him.

 



rocketpig on 18 June 2008

I consider that sloppy storytelling. The fact that the message is so vague and hidden means different people will come to different interpretations. You can find meaning in virtually everything if you want to but it doesn't mean it was meant to be there. The point you and others are missing is that kind of storytelling would not hold it's own in an educational setting because it doesn't "teach" you anything. In the case of MGS Kojima is the teacher, you are the student and MGS is the text book. It's meant to teach the player and so being vague or interpretational doesn't suffice. Imagine had Neitzche written short stories with interpretive characters his work would then be almost worthless because philosophy is a very percise and descreptive field where the writer must express himself extremely precisely through the use of words.

Kojima is IMO one of the greatest creative thinkers of the past century and though he is underrated today in the future when his political and social predictions presented in MGS come true people will take notice and remember him.


I'm sorry but that is the most ridiculous line I have read in quite awhile.

Textbooks tell you what to think. Art asks you to think. That's not sloppy at all, that's the sign of true art.

In 100 years, few will remember who Kojima is but I guarantee you people will still be watching Apocolypse Now and reading Heart of Darkness, despite the fact that they ask you to think instead of telling you how to think, which is apparently a boon of storytelling in your crazy little world.




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