swyggi said:   This has nothing to do with movie type games or whatever you're implying.  When a gamer is more into the game ITSELF, rather than having to think about what he/she is doing on the outside and the connection into the game is very strong, he/she has become deeply immersed.  Playing a game in a relaxed manner with a joystick is enough to get someone immersed, heck games have been like this for the past 20 years.   If you're interacting by moving your hands like shaking it or something, you will become tired (no matter how little tired, you wouldn't be tired at all if you didn't move your hands).  Thus making the gamer aware of what he or she is doing and taking away from the subconscious feeling you get while playing the game even if very subtle

  Heck, if you are not tired of playing the same game even with a regualr path, or mouse + keyboard you are a machine,  after a while you get tired, you are conscious of your movements, no matter whta kind of control you clearly made the action, is not part of the subconscious since you are responding to the game, the same goes for the wiimote, maybe you don't feel more immersion, but since I'm able to swing my arm like if I was playing tennis, is more natural and immersive than pushing the button and waiting for the player response...

 @Million you can go there and watch the same backgorund, trees, and ruins, but you have to look with your 1st person view, nobody has taken that kind of pic, but if you wan tomorrow I will show you the same scene from link eyes...

swyggi said: FJ-Warez said: swyggi said: I wasn't referring to the HD consoles as being more immersive because they had great graphics. It's the feeling of being lost in a game as opposed to being aware of what you're doing. Many people would agree that you can be more immersed in the gamecube version of TP than the Wii version of TP BECAUSE there are no motion controls. It's the concept of being in the game vs. interacting with it.   You are right however in saying that Immersion and Interaction are not mutually exclusive because they can be combined in ways. However, the more interaction that takes place the more immersion is taken away. Ex: MP3 is immersive and relies on controls for interaction while keeping immersion in check most of the time, but Wii sports' controls make it too obvious to what you're doing because of the amount of movement in comparison to MP3 taking away from immersion and giving more to interaction. At this point you are more into a movie type of game, and how many games are like movies??? I don't think the same, the most immersive games featured heavy interaction, even if it was just a button masher...   This has nothing to do with movie type games or whatever you're implying. When a gamer is more into the game ITSELF, rather than having to think about what he/she is doing on the outside and the connection into the game is very strong, he/she has become deeply immersed. Playing a game in a relaxed manner with a joystick is enough to get someone immersed, heck games have been like this for the past 20 years. If you're interacting by moving your hands like shaking it or something, you will become tired (no matter how little tired, you wouldn't be tired at all if you didn't move your hands). Thus making the gamer aware of what he or she is doing and taking away from the subconscious feeling you get while playing the game even if very subtle.   Think of Immersion as the subconscious and Interaction as the conscious.   To your last sentence: that's just it though, pressing buttons is not very much interaction at all. Pressing a button isn't the same as swinging a sword, but you pressed a button thus making Link swing a sword. When you use a Wii-Mote to move your arm and swing the sword it becomes more obvious because your arms get a feeling of tiredness regardless of how relaxed you are. So instead of focusing on the game as much, you have to focus on what you're doing on the outside in order to make the game do what you want it to do on the inside. There are an infinite number of ways to swing your arm, but there's only one B-button.

 You raise a very valid point , I never even though about it.

 

But Swygi don't you think graphics would affect immersion especialy for some who frequently plays both the Wii and PS3/360 , after playing (an example) Call Of Duty 4 on the 360 for half an hour , don't you think the degrade in visual quality will affect the level of immersion once they start playing Metroid Prime ( for example).  Noticing all the jagged edges , lower resolution textures etc etc . 

FJ-Warez said: swyggi said:   This has nothing to do with movie type games or whatever you're implying. When a gamer is more into the game ITSELF, rather than having to think about what he/she is doing on the outside and the connection into the game is very strong, he/she has become deeply immersed. Playing a game in a relaxed manner with a joystick is enough to get someone immersed, heck games have been like this for the past 20 years. If you're interacting by moving your hands like shaking it or something, you will become tired (no matter how little tired, you wouldn't be tired at all if you didn't move your hands). Thus making the gamer aware of what he or she is doing and taking away from the subconscious feeling you get while playing the game even if very subtle   Heck, if you are not tired of playing the same game even with a regualr path, or mouse + keyboard you are a machine, after a while you get tired, you are conscious of your movements, no matter whta kind of control you clearly made the action, is not part of the subconscious since you are responding to the game, the same goes for the wiimote, maybe you don't feel more immersion, but since I'm able to swing my arm like if I was playing tennis, is more natural and immersive than pushing the button and waiting for the player response... @Million you can go there and watch the same backgorund, trees, and ruins, but you have to look with your 1st person view, nobody has taken that kind of pic, but if you wan tomorrow I will show you the same scene from link eyes...

 FJ your debating about something you can't ever win in , Background ,tree , ruin etc is more than artistic talent it requires proccesing power. The PS3 is capable of far more detailed and realistic ( contributing to immersiveness) enviroment , there's nothing developers can do to overcome the Wii's hardware limitations.

 

Million said: But Swygi don't you think graphics would affect immersion especialy for some who frequently plays both the Wii and PS3/360 , after playing (an example) Call Of Duty 4 on the 360 for half an hour , don't you think the degrade in visual quality will affect the level of immersion once they start playing Metroid Prime ( for example). Noticing all the jagged edges , lower resolution textures etc etc .

I agree, that does happen, but it last all of 5 - 10 minutes for me to readjust to the differences. Much like how I can go from watching this anime:

 to this anime:

 

 they're different art styles, sure. One might even be worlds ahead of the other, but I don't have some odd reaction to switching back and forth between these art styles.

On the other hand, the physical activity of being able ot point wher eyou want to shoot at in Metroid Prime 3 or Twilight Princess, these controls made it very difficult to go back to games like turok and Majora's Mask/wind Waker or even Matroid Prime 2 where I had to use dual joystick or just any joystick to be able to aim. This would certainly affect CoD just as badly, and that issue would last through the entire game.

Grey Acumen said: Million said: But Swygi don't you think graphics would affect immersion especialy for some who frequently plays both the Wii and PS3/360 , after playing (an example) Call Of Duty 4 on the 360 for half an hour , don't you think the degrade in visual quality will affect the level of immersion once they start playing Metroid Prime ( for example). Noticing all the jagged edges , lower resolution textures etc etc . I agree, that does happen, but it last all of 5 - 10 minutes for me to readjust to the differences. Much like how I can go from watching this anime: to this anime: they're different art styles, sure. One might even be worlds ahead of the other, but I don't have some odd reaction to switching back and forth between these art styles. On the other hand, the physical activity of being able ot point wher eyou want to shoot at in Metroid Prime 3 or Twilight Princess, these controls made it very difficult to go back to games like turok and Majora's Mask/wind Waker or even Matroid Prime 2 where I had to use dual joystick or just any joystick to be able to aim. This would certainly affect CoD just as badly, and that issue would last through the entire game.

Anime =/= Games , Art Style =/= Visual Quality.

 

Your talking about your personal preference towards controlers ,that's irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Based on this your argument falls appart.

 

VS

 

Million said: swyggi said: FJ-Warez said: swyggi said: I wasn't referring to the HD consoles as being more immersive because they had great graphics. It's the feeling of being lost in a game as opposed to being aware of what you're doing. Many people would agree that you can be more immersed in the gamecube version of TP than the Wii version of TP BECAUSE there are no motion controls. It's the concept of being in the game vs. interacting with it.   You are right however in saying that Immersion and Interaction are not mutually exclusive because they can be combined in ways. However, the more interaction that takes place the more immersion is taken away. Ex: MP3 is immersive and relies on controls for interaction while keeping immersion in check most of the time, but Wii sports' controls make it too obvious to what you're doing because of the amount of movement in comparison to MP3 taking away from immersion and giving more to interaction. At this point you are more into a movie type of game, and how many games are like movies??? I don't think the same, the most immersive games featured heavy interaction, even if it was just a button masher...   This has nothing to do with movie type games or whatever you're implying. When a gamer is more into the game ITSELF, rather than having to think about what he/she is doing on the outside and the connection into the game is very strong, he/she has become deeply immersed. Playing a game in a relaxed manner with a joystick is enough to get someone immersed, heck games have been like this for the past 20 years. If you're interacting by moving your hands like shaking it or something, you will become tired (no matter how little tired, you wouldn't be tired at all if you didn't move your hands). Thus making the gamer aware of what he or she is doing and taking away from the subconscious feeling you get while playing the game even if very subtle.   Think of Immersion as the subconscious and Interaction as the conscious.   To your last sentence: that's just it though, pressing buttons is not very much interaction at all. Pressing a button isn't the same as swinging a sword, but you pressed a button thus making Link swing a sword. When you use a Wii-Mote to move your arm and swing the sword it becomes more obvious because your arms get a feeling of tiredness regardless of how relaxed you are. So instead of focusing on the game as much, you have to focus on what you're doing on the outside in order to make the game do what you want it to do on the inside. There are an infinite number of ways to swing your arm, but there's only one B-button.        You raise a very valid point , I never even though about it.   But Swygi don't you think graphics would affect immersion especialy for some who frequently plays both the Wii and PS3/360 , after playing (an example) Call Of Duty 4 on the 360 for half an hour , don't you think the degrade in visual quality will affect the level of immersion once they start playing Metroid Prime ( for example).  Noticing all the jagged edges , lower resolution textures etc etc .

Graphics can have a feeling of immersion, but it only lasts for a certain period of time.  When I first saw the PS2 graphics I was stunned.  Then after a couple of months,  the graphics didn't really appeal to me nearly as much.  Our eyes adjust to degrees of texture and quality over time thus making the graphics almost second nature. 

To me, I wasn't focused on the graphics of MP3.  They are better than the previous installments' graphics, but the graphics to many including myself wasn't the reason for the lack of immersion compared to the past installments of MP3.  The game's voice acting took away from the immersion because the past MP's were all about isolation and the feeling of exploring.  Voice acting works for some games, but MP games have never really been about the story.  That's not to say that the story in a game takes away from immersion because it really adds to it.  It just doesn't work for some games.    

Yeah. It's a shame Ansel Adams didn't take many pictures in color. They would have been so much better than the B&W pictures he took.

Million said:  FJ your debating about something you can't ever win in , Background ,tree , ruin etc is more than artistic talent it requires proccesing power. The PS3 is capable of far more detailed and realistic ( contributing to immersiveness) enviroment , there's nothing developers can do to overcome the Wii's hardware limitations.

 This is not about the Wii limitations, is about the immersion of a game, if you think about for a second by your logic, no game has been immersive until this gen, and to this point no game is immersive anymore until they found a way to surpass Crysis...

Immersion is not provided only by the graphics, if that was the case Wii Sports wouldn't be a success, and any GTA in the PS2 era was a disaster...

lol, omg this is still going on and someone actually started putting stills?

Ok... back to the basics.

Immersion is forgeting yourself in a game; at least by how we are relating to the word.

Interaction is how we are commanding characters in the game at least by how we are relating to the word.

Omfg, every game has the potential to be immersive, I don't even like Wii sports and even I got into he boxing, like once the bell goes the only moment I remember I'm playing a game (outside of not actually getting hurt) is when I KO the target or the match ends.

That's a combination of the two.

Look at god of war, that game was awesome on both fronts so come on already, all you did was show clearly one art direction vs another.

We all know Zelda Twilight was not going towards photo realism, but we all know Epic loves photo realism and so does Naughty Dog.

You even went as far as to show a pic from Mario Galaxy, If you were going to do that you could of taken a still of when he crawls on he Queen Bee.

This thread is dead anyway, I've seen it on this board at least 2x a month for the last year.

Not trying to come off rude but thats like saying: Okami isn't immersive because it doesn't look like CoD4.

Finally no, cheating is showing a picture of Drakes Fortune when he's in as usual a forest vs Hyrule Plains and trying to play that off as a forest.
Which by the way that was a cut scene also, lighting color and camera have huge effects on what is visually "cute". =P

Um have some people forgot PS3 has Sixaxis?

 

And the screenshot thing is weak only graphics whore use that arguement.

 

Go play Shenmue it used a traditional controller and it combined both elements  of interaction/immersion making it an experience.

And to this day while the visuals from tech aspect maybe dated the level of detail and style in the game still holds up.