Deviation59 said: The Ghost of RubangB said: wartaal said: basicly, the improvements gta 4 made from gta SA were bigger than ssbb did compared to even the original n64 smash brothers. in almost 10 years nintendo just used the same basic formula with some minor tweaks. the next smash brothers will be very similar to the other three and nintendo will throw in some next characters > nintendo fanboys happy. gta4 is pushing both consoles to its limits, therefore it will be having some minor errors that will soon be fixed hopefully. "Improving a series" and "pushing a console to its limits" have nothing to do with each other. Brawl pushes the Wii closer to its limits than ever before, seeing as how it is the ONLY dual-layered disc on the system, so it's potentially twice as big as other Wii games. What did GTA4 change gameplay wise? Did it tigthen the controls a little bit? Is that innovation now? That's expected. In fact, that's what we want and is the exact opposite of innovation. It's improvement, but ... not more than Brawl was.  You obviously know nothing about the game as the changes and improvements are insanely extensive. No game has ever come anywhere near this close to creating a real, living, breathing place inhabited by vibrant individual personalities you can interract with. I don't believe that any game ever previously released, ever, has been this deep with this much to do, this packed with details and interaction. It goes far beyond any game I have ever played before and video games have been my hobby since 1990.  All of the things the game has improved on and all of the new innovations and additions are so numerous I'm literally left with my head spinning as to where to even start. This is a game that grows on you and sucks you in and becomes better with every minute you spend playing it. Sure, in the first half hour or so it just seems like GTA in HD but by the time you've put ten hours into it you start to understand why it's so much more than the average game and the enormity of Rockstar's accomplishment begins to dawn on you. By the time you've put twenty to thirty hours into it and you're incredibly immersed in the whole experience you're spouting off the same superlatives that IGN's 7 page 10/10 review was giving out while constantly coming up with new ones. The 10/10 that came from IGN's most respected reviewer on a site that hadn't given out 10's since Ocarina of Time and Soul Caliber.  If GTA IV ends up being the highest rated game of all time, it will have earned it, handily - and I think that's the only reason Nintendo fans even care about it - it might displace Ocarina of Time. How would you like it if I dismissed that game as "just another Zelda game" while ignoring all of the innovations it brought to the table because I couldn't be arsed to play it or even fucking read a review for it?

     Hey I'm not just some Zelda fanboy freaking out about OoT.  Dismiss OoT all you want.  I prefer Link's Awakening or Twilight Princess anyway.  But OoT's innovation was huge.  OoT paved the way for GTA3 and 4.  OoT invented the 3rd-person lock-on targeting system for both melee and ranged weapons.  And even then, OoT used that targeting system in combination with the camera better than any of the GTA3 games.

     I'd like to know how the gameplay changed in GTA4.  I really do.  I might play it some day.  I've played every GTA game that came before it, from PC to GBA.  I haven't heard of any innovative GAMEPLAY in a single thread here.  All I hear is crap about "the detail" and "the living breathing world" and... I want to know how my fingers press buttons to make new things happen that didn't happen in San Andreas.

     When I play games I don't get to hold vibrant individual personalities in my hand.  I hold a controller.  How has it changed the way the game is played?  Anybody?

Grey Acumen said: @kingofwale, windbane, username2324, deviation59, TheRealMafoo THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT GTA IV IT IS ABOUT PEOPLE'S REACTIONS TO THE GAME THIS IS NOT ABOUT GAME QUALITY THIS IS ABOUT FAN FOCUS IN OTHER DISCUSSIONS OF THE GAME If you think otherwise, you're wrong. It doesn't matter what critisism you think is being said, cause their ISN'T ANY. This is a purely observational thread. If you continue to beat out that point, you will only end up making the OT look all the more applicable, because you ARE coming across as desperate to defend this game. The reason I use desperate to describe you is because you are acting like GTA IV is being attacked, when anyone who actually reads the OP without a chip on their shoulder can see that your reactions to the post have nothing to do with what the OP was about, and on top of that, your efforts to defend the game involve attacking your imaginary opponent. When attack is your initial reaction it implies that you do so because you have nothing with which to defend your view, hence your only recourse is to attack any perceived threat right away. LET GO OF THE CHIP ON YOUR SHOULDER I realize that it requires a certain amount of effort in order to properly understand the focus of my OP. If you go into it with a chip on your shoulder, you will end up inserting whatever it is you expect to hear, instead of what is actually there.

 Thank you for proving my point. I never once defended the game, or even talked about the game for that matter. My involvement in this thread has been purely about how you, and other Nintendo fans are dealing with a non-Nintendo game taking top honers as possibly the greatest games of all time.

It was not HD fans that ever brought up OoT first, or SMG, or any other Nintendo game, it was Nintendo fan. It was not HD console owners that starting this huge war going on these forums about this game and its place in history, it's been Nintendo fans.

The HD fans have no reason to have a chip on there shoulder, they just have a great game to play, and a forum to talk about it on. The group of people trying to hold on to the past like it's gospel (I will let you guess who they are), are the ones with the Chip.

You should probably check yourself before you make another thread like this. Your comments about peoples state of mind better reflect your own over the HD fans who are just loving a game and put no more stock into it then that.

TheRealMafoo said: Grey Acumen said: @kingofwale, windbane, username2324, deviation59, TheRealMafoo THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT GTA IV IT IS ABOUT PEOPLE'S REACTIONS TO THE GAME THIS IS NOT ABOUT GAME QUALITY THIS IS ABOUT FAN FOCUS IN OTHER DISCUSSIONS OF THE GAME If you think otherwise, you're wrong. It doesn't matter what critisism you think is being said, cause their ISN'T ANY. This is a purely observational thread. If you continue to beat out that point, you will only end up making the OT look all the more applicable, because you ARE coming across as desperate to defend this game. The reason I use desperate to describe you is because you are acting like GTA IV is being attacked, when anyone who actually reads the OP without a chip on their shoulder can see that your reactions to the post have nothing to do with what the OP was about, and on top of that, your efforts to defend the game involve attacking your imaginary opponent. When attack is your initial reaction it implies that you do so because you have nothing with which to defend your view, hence your only recourse is to attack any perceived threat right away. LET GO OF THE CHIP ON YOUR SHOULDER I realize that it requires a certain amount of effort in order to properly understand the focus of my OP. If you go into it with a chip on your shoulder, you will end up inserting whatever it is you expect to hear, instead of what is actually there. Thank you for proving my point. I never once defended the game, or even talked about the game for that matter. My involvement in this thread has been purely about how you, and other Nintendo fans are dealing with a non-Nintendo game taking top honers as possibly the greatest games of all time. It was not HD fans that ever brought up OoT first, or SMG, or any other Nintendo game, it was Nintendo fan. It was not HD console owners that starting this huge war going on these forums about this game and its place in history, it's been Nintendo fans. The HD fans have no reason to have a chip on there shoulder, they just have a great game to play, and a forum to talk about it on. The group of people trying to hold on to the past like it's gospel (I will let you guess who they are), are the ones with the Chip. You should probably check yourself before you make another thread like this. Your comments about peoples state of mind better reflect your own over the HD fans who are just loving a game and put no more stock into it then that.

Thank you for proving my point, you have never once defended the game or even talked about the game for that matter. Your involvement in this thread was to attack all conclusions made based on your own erroneous assumption that this thread is somehow intended to bash GTA IV, when it is not about the game, it is about the people surrounding the game, and doesn't even bash them, but merely observes their actions and attempts to draw conclusions for the reasoning behind these actions. Anyone who has actually read the OP has been able to recognize this fact.

Ill ignore every response so far and say that in my opinion reviewers should rate games compared to other video games released at the time... wii? better control more points for that... but graphics, weak online and far less detailed environments? dock points, sure for the wii the environments might be good... but not compared to other new games on other systems.

You haven't even played the game, so your opinion is automatically invalid since you feel you can accurately judge. You haven't even played a previous GTA game.

These GTA IV/HD console/reviewer/insert certain group which is supposedly harming the Wii conspiracy threads are getting just plain retarded.

Grey Acumen said: Thank you for proving my point, you have never once defended the game or even talked about the game for that matter. Your involvement in this thread was to attack all conclusions made based on your own erroneous assumption that this thread is somehow intended to bash GTA IV, when it is not about the game, it is about the people surrounding the game, and doesn't even bash them, but merely observes their actions and attempts to draw conclusions for the reasoning behind these actions. Anyone who has actually read the OP has been able to recognize this fact.

I am not sure how you can have a title to a thread like this one, and say it's not about GTA and it's not about bashing the user base. Is somehow using the word "desperation" supposed to have no negative connotation anymore?

Look, I will put it in simple terms, so we don't get another 5000 words.

A game came out on an HD console, it's stolen all the attention of the industry and has been touted by the industry as one of the greatest games of all time, and for reasons I don't understand, Nintendo fans are upset about it.

That right there, is the reason for this three page thread. Nothing more.

An HD console fan didn't start this conversation, you did. Why do you think that is? ;)

This is incredibly rude.

There is nothing worse than to look at the fanbases of other consoles as lower than your own. I don't care how many posts this has gotten, or what kind of interesting discussions or flame wars you have gotten into.

Calling the fans of other consoles desperate, in a thread title no less, is just mean. Plain ol' mean.

And besides, there is a GTA4 thread made, so that fans of the game can have discussion and the people who hate it can be ignored.

But really, considering that Wii fans need to beat up on the PS2 for their ports, don't consider yourselves any better.

Sticky here:

http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?start=50&id=25239

lol?

Really? Soo you mean the pre-GTA "GTA = death of the Wii" was a Nintendo fan!? OMG where is he, omfg I'm so angry now I can't control myself omg.

Anyway I got a violin here for you.. can't see it? I'm playing it right now? Still can't see it? Well it's the worlds smallest one that's probably why.

As an avid gamer I could care less what other people play unless I'm directly affected, ie. an MMORPG.

Shame on you for thinking anyone cared what game your playing, you should be chanting, how great your damn game is not defending it.

There should be nothing to freakn defend, I mean it is 10/10. Ok ok I just made myself lol so I'll stop XD.

So IGN came out and said, "well a 10/10 doesn't mean a game is perfect.

I'm not sure if this in reaction to the 16% of gamers who go on he internet of which probably 4% of them were against the 10/10 thing

But I'm like so when I take a test and I there are 10 questions and I get them all right and I see 10/10 100% next to it that means I didn't answer the it perfectly...

What the hell is a critical review if not just a pretest to build hype for a product or kill it. When IGN has their damn grading concepts so askew from the common understanding of grading, in some realm of smug that I don't even want to get whiff of it shows qithout doubt why their just gaming magazines.. But then again he NY Times hasn't proven to be any better.. So what are we supposed to take from all this?

Simpel go buy the damn game/rent or borrow it and see if you like it. Or just wait 3 months for a nice player review to come out and grade it off that.

I personally trust player reviews months later rather than player reviews within the week of launch, I mean I personnaly know it takes me 2 to 3 play throughs or 2 2 - 7 weeks to fully grasp a game and it's concepts.

ie. Assassins Creed isn't a game it's something else I gave it a 3/10 mainly due to it's lack of being a game but still being entertaining minus certain idums which was it's repetative nature.

No the problem is these guys aren't being held accountable for their falacies, no one loses money... oh well.

Thanks for rescinding the decision to lock this thread, montana, I'm going to see if I can add anything to the OP to clarify things for people still taking offense at the use of wording.

I have read most everything in this thread and I saw that many people rashly bashed Grey Acumen for flaming. He wasn't as far as I could tell. I saw none of that in his OP. This is a great question that he has brought up: Is the current review structure biased against casual games? If history is to be judged, then yes.

I don't know if GTA4 is worthy of 10/10, but I will say it is just for the sake of argument. What people have accused Gery Acumen of in this thread is nothing less than what they wanted and expected to see in yet another GTA thread. They came in with a bias and saw everything through that lens of GTA4 BEST EVAH!! NO QUESTIONS ASKED! DOUBT IT AND YOU FLAME~! But in all reality he was simply commenting on the surrounding events.

All the haters and trolls really need to get a hold of themselves and be at peace with themselves before they become the next leo-j. The senior members are starting to act like the freshman trolls that arrived in the past week or two. Get a grip of the poster's perspective before reacting... gracious sakes....