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Forums - Gaming - Metal Gear Online = TPS = 3rd Person Shite

rocketpig on 25 April 2008
billy07 said:
rocketpig said:
billy07 said:
rocketpig said:
Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head.
But your idea of a mature storytelling seems to be "less is more" which is clearly not the case in philosophy. If you want to have a truly indepth knowledge of philosophical ideas and subject matter you need to expose them in long winded text. They should be present either fleshed out completely or not at allb if they're going to be dumbed down as they were in MGS3. You can't do philosophy "gracefully"with allusions or such, that's simply touching upon the subject matter not exploring it. There's a difference between presenting idea's and providing in depth review of the subject matters.

 


Then Kojima should write a philosophical text and stop torturing us by trying to force ideas into a media that doesn't work well with his ideas.

You say that, but what I do not understand is why cannot Kojima just implement his philosophy into his games for those who like it and those who do not can play others games, about 99.99% of video games which don't follow the formula of Kojima's games? Why should Kojima give up on injecting heavy philosophy into his games for fans who appreciate it just to satisfy others such as yourself who could easily chose to play any of the thousands of games out there? Why he should cater to the majority when every other gaming company is doing that already?

 


All I'm saying is that if he wants to be a videogame developer, he should work within the confines of that media to make it as great as possible. After all, that's what a true artist does. He works with the materials at hand and makes something brilliant with it. He doesn't try to convert a painting into an orchestral piece.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

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rocketpig on 25 April 2008
windbane said:
rocketpig said:
billy07 said:
rocketpig said:
Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head.
But your idea of a mature storytelling seems to be "less is more" which is clearly not the case in philosophy. If you want to have a truly indepth knowledge of philosophical ideas and subject matter you need to expose them in long winded text. They should be present either fleshed out completely or not at allb if they're going to be dumbed down as they were in MGS3. You can't do philosophy "gracefully"with allusions or such, that's simply touching upon the subject matter not exploring it. There's a difference between presenting idea's and providing in depth review of the subject matters.

 


Then Kojima should write a philosophical text and stop torturing us by trying to force his message into a media that doesn't work well with his ideas.


Actually, his genius is the merging of game and movie. I think his messages work great in his games.


No, Mass Effect merged game and movie. With the MGS series, they're abrubtly separate entities that constantly jar the user out of the experience.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

windbane on 25 April 2008
rocketpig said:
windbane said:
rocketpig said:
windbane said:
rocketpig said:
Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head.

Eh, gotta say I disagree. It's what hooked me into the series.


Which makes me wonder why people so readily accept mediocre storytelling in videogames yet expect so much more in cinema and novels.


It's closer to excellent than mediocre. However, gamers do accept bad story telling.


I strongly disagree. The plot is ridiculously convoluted (which some people confuse for "deep"), the pacing is terrible, and the acting is atrocious.

Ask yourself this: If The Patriots were introduced to you in a movie or novel, would you roll your eyes at the ridiculous nature of it all? If your answer is yes, why do you believe MGS has an excellent storyline? Think about it for a minute. The peripheral characters of the MGS series are unintentionally absurd and would be laughed at by everyone if they were presented in any format other than a videogame. 


The idea of the Patrioits is great. I will not spoil it for people that haven't played the game, but the method of their introduction is genius. The characters in the game are more akin to comic book characters, sure, but the ideas aren't hurt by the crazy characters. The absurd characters add a lot to the gameplay because it allows unique fights. They don't ruin the story. Oh, and comic book characters seem to be doing fine in movies, along with transforming cars.



Dragon007 on 25 April 2008
rocketpig said:
billy07 said:
rocketpig said:
Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head.
But your idea of a mature storytelling seems to be "less is more" which is clearly not the case in philosophy. If you want to have a truly indepth knowledge of philosophical ideas and subject matter you need to expose them in long winded text. They should be present either fleshed out completely or not at allb if they're going to be dumbed down as they were in MGS3. You can't do philosophy "gracefully"with allusions or such, that's simply touching upon the subject matter not exploring it. There's a difference between presenting idea's and providing in depth review of the subject matters.

 


Then Kojima should write a philosophical text and stop torturing us by trying to force his message into a media that doesn't work well with his ideas.


I have to say, for a mod you troll an awful lot. Every MGS thread you have to say something negative about the series or MGS2. We get it, you don't like it, make your own thread if you're so intent on discussing it. This thread is about MGO.

OT: I thought it was good, nothing amazing. There are some improvements to be made, but it is a beta afterall.



rocketpig on 25 April 2008

The idea of the Patrioits is great. I will not spoil it for people that haven't played the game, but the method of their introduction is genius.

The characters in the game are more akin to comic book characters, sure, but the ideas aren't hurt by the crazy characters. The absurd characters add a lot to the gameplay because it allows unique fights. They don't ruin the story. Oh, and comic book characters seem to be doing fine in movies, along with transforming cars.


See, now you're deflecting the conversation. Last time I checked, Transformers and comic book movies didn't spend the last half hour of the movie preaching philosophy to me. They were smart enough to know that kitschy hiding in cardboard boxes and looking at titty magazines to ease nausea doesn't work with in-depth philosophical ramblings after the climax of the piece.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

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windbane on 25 April 2008
rocketpig said:
windbane said:
rocketpig said:
billy07 said:
rocketpig said:
Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head.
But your idea of a mature storytelling seems to be "less is more" which is clearly not the case in philosophy. If you want to have a truly indepth knowledge of philosophical ideas and subject matter you need to expose them in long winded text. They should be present either fleshed out completely or not at allb if they're going to be dumbed down as they were in MGS3. You can't do philosophy "gracefully"with allusions or such, that's simply touching upon the subject matter not exploring it. There's a difference between presenting idea's and providing in depth review of the subject matters.

 


Then Kojima should write a philosophical text and stop torturing us by trying to force his message into a media that doesn't work well with his ideas.


Actually, his genius is the merging of game and movie. I think his messages work great in his games.


No, Mass Effect merged game and movie. With the MGS series, they're abrubtly separate entities that constantly jar the user out of the experience.


Look, we clearly disagree. Metal Gear Solid 1 was a masterpiece of its time. It was the first game to merge movie elements with game. When you beat the game you can replay it in a Theater Mode! It gives you text for the action segments. Playing those out myself did not take me out of the experience. The gameplay was really fun and I wanted to know what happened next in the story. I was blown away by the execution of philosophy, gameplay, cut scenes, and how well they all went together. You can continue to attack his implementation, and I'll continue to defend it. Apparently so will Billy08. It will be a sad day when Kojima retires. He is still the king of his genre.



rocketpig on 25 April 2008
Dragon007 said:
rocketpig said:
billy07 said:
rocketpig said:
Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head.
But your idea of a mature storytelling seems to be "less is more" which is clearly not the case in philosophy. If you want to have a truly indepth knowledge of philosophical ideas and subject matter you need to expose them in long winded text. They should be present either fleshed out completely or not at allb if they're going to be dumbed down as they were in MGS3. You can't do philosophy "gracefully"with allusions or such, that's simply touching upon the subject matter not exploring it. There's a difference between presenting idea's and providing in depth review of the subject matters.

 


Then Kojima should write a philosophical text and stop torturing us by trying to force his message into a media that doesn't work well with his ideas.


I have to say, for a mod you troll an awful lot. Every MGS thread you have to say something negative about the series or MGS2. We get it, you don't like it, make your own thread if you're so intent on discussing it. This thread is about MGO.

OT: I thought it was good, nothing amazing. There are some improvements to be made, but it is a beta afterall.


You're treading on awfully thin ice right now. I'm not the one who brought up the MGS series, Billy was. I made an offhand comment about MGO and Japanese online games. Billy is the one who wanted to fire up this inane conversation again.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

windbane on 25 April 2008
rocketpig said:
The idea of the Patrioits is great. I will not spoil it for people that haven't played the game, but the method of their introduction is genius.

The characters in the game are more akin to comic book characters, sure, but the ideas aren't hurt by the crazy characters. The absurd characters add a lot to the gameplay because it allows unique fights. They don't ruin the story. Oh, and comic book characters seem to be doing fine in movies, along with transforming cars.


See, now you're deflecting the conversation. Last time I checked, Transformers and comic book movies didn't spend the last half hour of the movie preaching philosophy to me. They were smart enough to know that kitschy hiding in cardboard boxes and looking at titty magazines to ease nausea doesn't work with in-depth philosophical ramblings after the climax of the piece.

Movies are much shorter than games. Transformers and comic book movies both had kitschy moments, but putting them in games allows you to expand on those and fit in a lot of other content. Making someone laugh inbetween the other elements isn't a bad thing. So much content it fills up the entire disc...heh...



billy07 on 25 April 2008
rocketpig said:
billy07 said:
rocketpig said:
billy07 said:
rocketpig said:
Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head.
But your idea of a mature storytelling seems to be "less is more" which is clearly not the case in philosophy. If you want to have a truly indepth knowledge of philosophical ideas and subject matter you need to expose them in long winded text. They should be present either fleshed out completely or not at allb if they're going to be dumbed down as they were in MGS3. You can't do philosophy "gracefully"with allusions or such, that's simply touching upon the subject matter not exploring it. There's a difference between presenting idea's and providing in depth review of the subject matters.

 


Then Kojima should write a philosophical text and stop torturing us by trying to force ideas into a media that doesn't work well with his ideas.

You say that, but what I do not understand is why cannot Kojima just implement his philosophy into his games for those who like it and those who do not can play others games, about 99.99% of video games which don't follow the formula of Kojima's games? Why should Kojima give up on injecting heavy philosophy into his games for fans who appreciate it just to satisfy others such as yourself who could easily chose to play any of the thousands of games out there? Why he should cater to the majority when every other gaming company is doing that already?

 


All I'm saying is that if he wants to be a videogame developer, he should work within the confines of that media to make it as great as possible. After all, that's what a true artist does. He works with the materials at hand and makes something brilliant with it. He doesn't try to convert a painting into an orchestral piece.


 But then how do you define the confines of video games? They're clearly very elusive because video games have become somewhat of a merger of all entertainment mediums and a large proponent of that change has been Mr. Kojima.

 Even if we just look at the original MGS game which almost all of us can agree was a bruilliant game it defies the definitions of video games set before it. It contains roughly 3-4 hours of playtime. It contains roughly 4 hours opf cutscenes which is about two and a half times the length of an average movie. I don't know how long the script was exactly, but I'd wager it was somewhere around 400 pages long, longer than most liuterary works held in high regard. What Kojima had apparently created with MGS was a game with more gameplay than most titl;es in the 8 and 16 bit era, more cinematics than any movie save lord of the rings and more script than most works of literature.  If you look at most action games of today, his influence is clear as games are becoming more and more cinematic and "movie like" following in the foot steps of MGS.

 With such a broad scope it is hard to circle a line around gaming and exclaim "this is it" Most games today are just as much cinema and literature as they are games even if not toithe degree that MGS is. So having franchises such as MGS (specifically 2) that inject a heavy dose of philosophy into their cinematic storytelling is no different to me than having a thick book that juggles an adventorus narrative coupled with heavy moral reasoning. 

The days where video games were referred to merely as "games" are coming to an end, most games in todays high def cinematic landscape are just as much "video" as they are "games"



windbane on 25 April 2008
rocketpig said:
Dragon007 said:
rocketpig said:
billy07 said:
rocketpig said:
Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head.
But your idea of a mature storytelling seems to be "less is more" which is clearly not the case in philosophy. If you want to have a truly indepth knowledge of philosophical ideas and subject matter you need to expose them in long winded text. They should be present either fleshed out completely or not at allb if they're going to be dumbed down as they were in MGS3. You can't do philosophy "gracefully"with allusions or such, that's simply touching upon the subject matter not exploring it. There's a difference between presenting idea's and providing in depth review of the subject matters.

 


Then Kojima should write a philosophical text and stop torturing us by trying to force his message into a media that doesn't work well with his ideas.


I have to say, for a mod you troll an awful lot. Every MGS thread you have to say something negative about the series or MGS2. We get it, you don't like it, make your own thread if you're so intent on discussing it. This thread is about MGO.

OT: I thought it was good, nothing amazing. There are some improvements to be made, but it is a beta afterall.


You're treading on awfully thin ice right now. I'm not the one who brought up the MGS series, Billy was. I made an offhand comment about MGO and Japanese online games. Billy is the one who wanted to fire up this inane conversation again.


Heh, you are a mod, aren't you? I don't always notice. Bold calling you a troll, heh. You can stop attacking the series at any time, though...