Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head. The guy always claims that he wants to make a cinematic game yet fails on almost every level of doing so except for throwing in cutscenes every chance he gets. If he wants cinematic gaming and wants to see how storytelling, pacing, and dialogue are properly done, he needs to look no further than Mass Effect.

Basically, I would rather watch a Michael Bay movie and play MGS2. At least Bay doesn't pretend to be deep and eagerly embraces his shittiness at storytelling.

rocketpig said: Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head.

Eh, gotta say I disagree. It's what hooked me into the series.

rocketpig said: Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head.

 But your idea of a mature storytelling seems to be "less is more" which is clearly not the case in philosophy. If you want to have a truly indepth knowledge of philosophical ideas and subject matter you need to expose them in long winded text. They should be present either fleshed out completely or not at allb if they're going to be dumbed down as they were in MGS3.  You can't do philosophy "gracefully"with allusions or such, that's simply touching upon the subject matter not exploring it. There's a difference between presenting idea's and providing in depth review of the subject matters.

 

windbane said: rocketpig said: Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head. Eh, gotta say I disagree. It's what hooked me into the series.

Which makes me wonder why people so readily accept mediocre storytelling in videogames yet expect so much more in cinema and novels.

billy07 said: rocketpig said: Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head. But your idea of a mature storytelling seems to be "less is more" which is clearly not the case in philosophy. If you want to have a truly indepth knowledge of philosophical ideas and subject matter you need to expose them in long winded text. They should be present either fleshed out completely or not at allb if they're going to be dumbed down as they were in MGS3. You can't do philosophy "gracefully"with allusions or such, that's simply touching upon the subject matter not exploring it. There's a difference between presenting idea's and providing in depth review of the subject matters.

Then Kojima should write a philosophical text and stop torturing us by trying to force his message into a media that doesn't work well with his ideas.

rocketpig said: windbane said: rocketpig said: Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head. Eh, gotta say I disagree. It's what hooked me into the series. Which makes me wonder why people so readily accept mediocre storytelling in videogames yet expect so much more in cinema and novels.

It's closer to excellent than mediocre. However, gamers do accept bad story telling.

rocketpig said: billy07 said: rocketpig said: Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head. But your idea of a mature storytelling seems to be "less is more" which is clearly not the case in philosophy. If you want to have a truly indepth knowledge of philosophical ideas and subject matter you need to expose them in long winded text. They should be present either fleshed out completely or not at allb if they're going to be dumbed down as they were in MGS3. You can't do philosophy "gracefully"with allusions or such, that's simply touching upon the subject matter not exploring it. There's a difference between presenting idea's and providing in depth review of the subject matters.   Then Kojima should write a philosophical text and stop torturing us by trying to force ideas into a media that doesn't work well with his ideas.

 You say that, but what I do not understand is why cannot Kojima just implement his philosophy into his games for those who like it and those who do not can play others games, about 99.99% of video games which don't follow the formula of Kojima's games? Why should Kojima give up on injecting heavy philosophy into his games for fans who appreciate it just to satisfy others such as yourself who could easily chose to play any of the thousands of games out there? Why he should cater to the majority when every other gaming company is doing that already?

 

rocketpig said: billy07 said: rocketpig said: Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head. But your idea of a mature storytelling seems to be "less is more" which is clearly not the case in philosophy. If you want to have a truly indepth knowledge of philosophical ideas and subject matter you need to expose them in long winded text. They should be present either fleshed out completely or not at allb if they're going to be dumbed down as they were in MGS3. You can't do philosophy "gracefully"with allusions or such, that's simply touching upon the subject matter not exploring it. There's a difference between presenting idea's and providing in depth review of the subject matters.   Then Kojima should write a philosophical text and stop torturing us by trying to force his message into a media that doesn't work well with his ideas.

Actually, his genius is the merging of game and movie. I think his messages work great in his games.

windbane said: rocketpig said: windbane said: rocketpig said: Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head. Eh, gotta say I disagree. It's what hooked me into the series. Which makes me wonder why people so readily accept mediocre storytelling in videogames yet expect so much more in cinema and novels. It's closer to excellent than mediocre. However, gamers do accept bad story telling.

I strongly disagree. The plot is ridiculously convoluted (which some people confuse for "deep"), the pacing is terrible, and the acting is atrocious.

Ask yourself this: If The Patriots were introduced to you in a movie or novel, would you roll your eyes at the ridiculous nature of it all? If your answer is yes, why do you believe MGS has an excellent storyline? Think about it for a minute. The peripheral characters of the MGS series are unintentionally absurd and would be laughed at by everyone if they were presented in any format other than a videogame. 

billy07 said: rocketpig said: billy07 said: rocketpig said: Yes, there are ideas. The problem is that they're poorly acted, poorly written, and poorly implemented. That whole "storytelling" thing kinda flies right over Kojima's head. But your idea of a mature storytelling seems to be "less is more" which is clearly not the case in philosophy. If you want to have a truly indepth knowledge of philosophical ideas and subject matter you need to expose them in long winded text. They should be present either fleshed out completely or not at allb if they're going to be dumbed down as they were in MGS3. You can't do philosophy "gracefully"with allusions or such, that's simply touching upon the subject matter not exploring it. There's a difference between presenting idea's and providing in depth review of the subject matters.   Then Kojima should write a philosophical text and stop torturing us by trying to force ideas into a media that doesn't work well with his ideas.  You say that, but what I do not understand is why cannot Kojima just implement his philosophy into his games for those who like it and those who do not can play others games, about 99.99% of video games which don't follow the formula of Kojima's games? Why should Kojima give up on injecting heavy philosophy into his games for fans who appreciate it just to satisfy others such as yourself who could easily chose to play any of the thousands of games out there? Why he should cater to the majority when every other gaming company is doing that already?

Well said. Edit: Or rather rhetorically asked, heh.