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Forums - Politics - Conservative activist Charlie Kirk murdered in Utah

Vinther1991 said:
angrypoolman said:

celebrate his death then man, knock yourself out. i really dont care. I dont have the energy for this anymore. i am just going to focus on me, my wife, my children, how i can best serve and protect my family, and probably stay off the internet for a few days. ha

WTF dude. I am not celebrating anyones death, nor have I  said people should.

I know you havent explicitly stated that, I apologize. many people have and it has just been exhausting tonight, exhaustion has been compounded with the fact that i am juat getting over a sickness. so again, apologies for slapping that label on you, it was careless



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Lucca said:

When one uses an absolute as an argument, such as "you should never celebrate another person's death", it is useful to take it to the extreme and see if it still holds up.

No, because that's called "Godwins Law" and it shows you have no reasonable argument.



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Ashadelo said:

He was a Godily man, who was assassinated because of radical left indoctrination.

Being "Godly" means he was indoctrinated himself... Making your statement hypocritical at best, bizarre at worst.
Maybe he should have prayed before he went on stage?

Either way, we don't know who attacked Charlie, but left or right, it's wrong... So best not to jump to conclusions until the facts have been established.
I.E. When Trump was targeted by a shooter, it was by someone who voted Republican... But you know, people still jumped to conclusions and blamed the left.

The further left or right you go, the more they are the same.




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angrypoolman said:
Lucca said:

The thing with political figures is that what they say is often much more important than what they do, and their words have much more power than what one single individual can do. That's why when you think of the worst people in history while having the faintest knowledge of the history of humanity, a whole lot of them are politicians. Hitler didn't do a whole lot of bad with his own hands, you know. He just influenced millions of people into doing so. With his words. Same with Stalin, Mussolini, Pinochet, any other autocrat in history. You cannot equate the power of the words of a public, political figure in the public stage, with the power of the words of your uncle on Thanksgiving dinner.

Charlie Kirk was not just a forum poster who talked about politics, he was a think-tank founder, a conspiracy theorist, an activist, and effectively a part of the US government. He didn't "just say stuff", which is bullshit from the get-go, but he also actively worked towards a more regressive (not conservative, regressive), intolerant, violent country. People are not celebrating his death "just because they disagree with him", and you know that, they are doing so because of what he had done and was still doing as part of the neo-nazi US far-right.

You seem to just have heard about the guy, because no one with any knowledge of him would say he would never "go that low", because if there was one thing he was good at was going lower and lower each and every day. Vinther1991 gave some good examples above, and a quick glance at his Wikipedia page would provide you with plenty more. He was the closest thing to the KKK Trump was able to get away with associating with directly.

yeah, sure he was a kkk who engaged in debates and free discussion on controversial topics in order to radicalize people to commit violence and he is a racist and a bigot and evil and he deserves to die and not raise his children and the world is better off for it. and hes a bad person who needs to die. is it too far to celebrate that his gruesome murder was recorded in hd so that his wife and kids can see it? it sounds wrong to say that but you sound pretty smart and good at rationalizing these things so let us know, how far is too far? or is the sky the limit because hes a bad nazi and punch a nazi and a good nazi is a dead nazi

You're clearly not engaging with anything I actually said, you're just building a straw man of what you think a leftist is. I'm not celebrating his death, and I'm definitely not cheering on the idea of his family seeing something horrific. I was actually shocked by the news, and I actually feel bad for the trauma his family now has to deal with, especially for his children who will have to deal with this event and the public videos of it forever.

What I am saying is that I’m also not going to mourn him or pretend he was some neutral figure who just "had a different opinion". He used his power to spread ideas and narratives that actively harmed people, and he did so deliberately. That’s why so many people feel relief at his absence from public life, not because they enjoy violence but because they see it as an end to his harmful influence. I'd much rather he simply retired, lost his platform, and faded into irrelevance.

There’s a difference between refusing to mourn and celebrating cruelty, and you keep trying to blur that difference so you can dismiss the point entirely.



only777 said:
Lucca said:

When one uses an absolute as an argument, such as "you should never celebrate another person's death", it is useful to take it to the extreme and see if it still holds up.

No, because that's called "Godwins Law" and it shows you have no reasonable argument.

That’s not what Godwin’s Law means. Godwin’s Law is about the inevitability of nazi comparisons in online discussions, not about whether using an extreme example is a valid way to test an absolute statement. If someone says "never celebrate another person’s death," the claim is absolute, meaning no exceptions. The easiest way to test if an absolute holds is to take it to the most extreme imaginable case and see if it still works. If it doesn’t, then it’s not truly absolute, and the discussion shifts to where the line is. That was all I was trying to do.

I didn't even mention nazis specifically, although "worst person in history" certainly invokes that, indeed. But the point still stands no matter who you think the "worst person in history" is. It could be Hitler, Mao, Marx, Freud, Nero, Jack the Ripper, T. S. Eliot, or the old man from your neighborhood who used to bully you when you were a kid. The point isn’t who you pick, it’s that if your absolute rule has an exception, then it's not truly absolute. It's just something you repeat to cut any argument short and avoid thinking about it.

As an aside, some nazi comparisons are apt (Mike Godwin said so himself). Invoking Godwin's Law whenever one comes up is just lazy.



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Lucca said:
only777 said:

No, because that's called "Godwins Law" and it shows you have no reasonable argument.

That’s not what Godwin’s Law means. Godwin’s Law is about the inevitability of nazi comparisons in online discussions, not about whether using an extreme example is a valid way to test an absolute statement. If someone says "never celebrate another person’s death," the claim is absolute, meaning no exceptions. The easiest way to test if an absolute holds is to take it to the most extreme imaginable case and see if it still works. If it doesn’t, then it’s not truly absolute, and the discussion shifts to where the line is. That was all I was trying to do.

I didn't even mention nazis specifically, although "worst person in history" certainly invokes that, indeed. But the point still stands no matter who you think the "worst person in history" is. It could be Hitler, Mao, Marx, Freud, Nero, Jack the Ripper, T. S. Eliot, or the old man from your neighborhood who used to bully you when you were a kid. The point isn’t who you pick, it’s that if your absolute rule has an exception, then it's not truly absolute. It's just something you repeat to cut any argument short and avoid thinking about it.

As an aside, some nazi comparisons are apt (Mike Godwin said so himself). Invoking Godwin's Law whenever one comes up is just lazy.

who honestly even cares about any of this? most people understand that absolutes are never true (an absolute! - im just pointing that out because you would very predictably make mention of it).

usually when people use an absolute like the one you mention, i wouldnt take their words literally. I would assume that they and I understand that there are limits to that blanket statement. its just common sense. like I said before, this point you are making is not profound. I find it boring, frankly 



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curl-6 said:

This woman is a professor at University of Toronto:

The fact this is someone who is supposed to be educating young people is downright disturbing.

Should be fired for that kind of statement in a position of education.

If at work I had a go at something I don't agree with in such a manner as that post I would be dismissed without a second thought. 



 

 

PDF said:
Kyuu said:

I intensely disliked him. He wasn't terrible enough to deserve dying so young...hundreds of millions of people are equally evil/brainwashed and I don't wish them death.

I feel sorry for the children he left behind, and mourn the fact that lunatic conservatives and right wingers will label him a courageous martyr of sorts. I pray that his murder won't lead more division, hatred, and deaths... but who am I kidding? This world is going straight to hell.

I work in american politics on the opposite aisle to Kirk. I have not been on VGChartz in months but was curious what this little internet forum was saying and I am sadly disappointed. I expected a few outliers to be either celebrating or blaming the "radical left" however I didn't expect to find so few with empathy. 

I've watched more Kirk content that I would like to admit. I call it "hate watching" where I enjoy watching something that gets me upset. However in all this time watching Kirk make offensive statements or bad faith arguments, I also found a respect for his willingness to debate. I know it was all either economically or power motivated for him but still he was open to it. Particularly of interests are the debates with the Oxford and Cambridge students where he was challenged by students that came very prepared. To his credit, I watched both of those from his youtube channel in full. 

His death is a tragedy. Not only for his family but for our nation because we are so divided that many can't simply even denounce political violence. I now fear the same thing that his death will empower his movement and could lead to violence in retaliation. 

Debating is how societies grow, learn and change for the better. Hard topics have to be discussed whether we agree with people's views or not. They may talk 80% shit, but the 20% could be something that fundamentally changes things for the better and hopefully move people towards the middle/

If you kill debate, it will fuel rage and anger and civil war between far left and far right.



 

 

angrypoolman said:
Lucca said:

That’s not what Godwin’s Law means. Godwin’s Law is about the inevitability of nazi comparisons in online discussions, not about whether using an extreme example is a valid way to test an absolute statement. If someone says "never celebrate another person’s death," the claim is absolute, meaning no exceptions. The easiest way to test if an absolute holds is to take it to the most extreme imaginable case and see if it still works. If it doesn’t, then it’s not truly absolute, and the discussion shifts to where the line is. That was all I was trying to do.

I didn't even mention nazis specifically, although "worst person in history" certainly invokes that, indeed. But the point still stands no matter who you think the "worst person in history" is. It could be Hitler, Mao, Marx, Freud, Nero, Jack the Ripper, T. S. Eliot, or the old man from your neighborhood who used to bully you when you were a kid. The point isn’t who you pick, it’s that if your absolute rule has an exception, then it's not truly absolute. It's just something you repeat to cut any argument short and avoid thinking about it.

As an aside, some nazi comparisons are apt (Mike Godwin said so himself). Invoking Godwin's Law whenever one comes up is just lazy.

who honestly even cares about any of this? most people understand that absolutes are never true (an absolute! - im just pointing that out because you would very predictably make mention of it).

usually when people use an absolute like the one you mention, i wouldnt take their words literally. I would assume that they and I understand that there are limits to that blanket statement. its just common sense. like I said before, this point you are making is not profound. I find it boring, frankly 

If you think it’s boring to ask people to back up moral claims with actual reasoning, fine, but don’t confuse your impatience with insightfulness.



The f. is wrong with people. A guy just got killed, he had wife and kids and people trying to find any possible way to justify the murder of another person just because they dont agree with him/her. You people are insane and the fact that some of you are even allowed to post on forums is disturbing.