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Forums - Politics Discussion - 2024 US Presidential Election

Ryuu96 said:

It has to be a plain white male moderate, Lol.

But Shapiro, Cooper, Beshear and Kelly are all strong choices.

Shapiro/Kelly are my favourites but they all offer something good.

The thought of Kelly, a former Navy Captain and Astronaut is a strong image.

Agree with this.

It's become exceedingly clear (e.g. record-breaking launch fundraising, 170,000 volunteers joining after just a few days, mass meme-ification rendering her in the cool zone where Democratic candidates for president belong, etc.) that the simple fact of being the nominee has instantly rendered Harris an Obama-level-plus star amongst the base of the Democratic Party and a few orbiting independents who might've otherwise considered supporting fringe candidates like Jill Stein of the Greens or Cornel West. One can definitely sense the youth and the energy they bring coming back home and the ticket springing back to life from its zombie status under her predecessor. In stark contrast to Biden, she's hosting roaring campaign rallies that are drawing thousands even on weekdays (and her first since emerging at the top of the ticket, from Wednesday, is an instructive example of how to stump the right way, incidentally). This is not fear of Trump we're seeing, it's love of candidate. Liberal Democrats clearly love Kamala Harris. That's great! It's also not good enough. As Bernie Sanders and the few intellectually honest Trump supporters who exist could attest to, hype doesn't mean election victory. So far Trump is still winning this election, folks. The race is closer now (i.e. Biden dropping out was the right move!), but he's still winning. What switching candidates has done in the practical essentially is just erase the effect of the June 27th debate. The Democratic ticket is now back to where it was before that, losing by an average of 2 percentage points instead of 3. So yes, the running mate choice matters! So does the convention. So do any future debates that may happen. Fortunately, things are looking up in that all those things realistically stand to benefit the Harris campaign.

When we look at the initial round of polls for Harris, we see just what we would expect: black voters, women, younger voters, and partisan Democrats are all rallying to the Harris campaign. Harris, however, continues to struggle with the blue collar working class vote that makes up the bulk of the country's population, having so far made zero inroads compared to Biden with the white working class in particular. This is the real dilemma of the modern Democratic Party and it's only growing more pronounced in each successive election anymore. To this end, I say the running mate choice should be someone of more appeal to the manual and menial laboring punch clock workers of this country than most Democrats are these days. Josh Shapiro and Andy Beshear are the strongest options available in that regard and I say that in large part because of the issue of gun politics. While Mark Kelly's actual stance on gun policy is not different from that of Shapiro and Beshear, he is known principally for his gun control advocacy. That makes him a strong option for winning over the suburbs, but gun control is a hot-button issue in rural areas (believe you me) where hunting and sport-shooting are both a way of life and Harris herself has already made banning assault weapons a top-priority issue of hers in her early speeches. I think someone who is known primarily for other things might help the ticket fare a tad better than it otherwise might in small town America and help out just fine in the suburbs too.

The bottom line here though is that Harris solidifies the unity of partisan Democrats in general and liberals in particular. Pretty much all available options for running mates are a bit more conservative than Harris herself is and that will help expand the ticket's appeal to more moderate and independent voters. All of that is as it should be. Experts sometimes debate over whether it's more important to maximize your party's base turnout or instead to persuade outsiders to support you. Winning campaigns don't pick and choose between those options, they do both. The party base is energized and mobilizing thanks to the change at the top of the ticket. The VP pick should be about persuasion; outreach beyond the party's own ranks. And I don't just mean "outreach" in terms of appealing to the broader electorate, but also a VP pick who can potentially persuade a few stray Republicans to support Democratic initiatives because realistically Harris will be inheriting a hostile Congress if she wins. Then comes the convention: a perfect opportunity to shape the narrative around the ticket.



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Going to be good.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Jaicee said:
Ryuu96 said:

It has to be a plain white male moderate, Lol.

But Shapiro, Cooper, Beshear and Kelly are all strong choices.

Shapiro/Kelly are my favourites but they all offer something good.

The thought of Kelly, a former Navy Captain and Astronaut is a strong image.

Agree with this.

It's become exceedingly clear (e.g. record-breaking launch fundraising, 170,000 volunteers joining after just a few days, mass meme-ification rendering her in the cool zone where Democratic candidates for president belong, etc.) that the simple fact of being the nominee has instantly rendered Harris an Obama-level-plus star amongst the base of the Democratic Party and a few orbiting independents who might've otherwise considered supporting fringe candidates like Jill Stein of the Greens or Cornel West. One can definitely sense the youth and the energy they bring coming back home and the ticket springing back to life from its zombie status under her predecessor. In stark contrast to Biden, she's hosting roaring campaign rallies that are drawing thousands even on weekdays (and her first since emerging at the top of the ticket, from Wednesday, is an instructive example of how to stump the right way, incidentally). This is not fear of Trump we're seeing, it's love of candidate. Liberal Democrats clearly love Kamala Harris. That's great! It's also not good enough. As Bernie Sanders and the few intellectually honest Trump supporters who exist could attest to, hype doesn't mean election victory. So far Trump is still winning this election, folks. The race is closer now (i.e. Biden dropping out was the right move!), but he's still winning. What switching candidates has done in the practical essentially is just erase the effect of the June 27th debate. The Democratic ticket is now back to where it was before that, losing by an average of 2 percentage points instead of 3. So yes, the running mate choice matters! So does the convention. So do any future debates that may happen. Fortunately, things are looking up in that all those things realistically stand to benefit the Harris campaign.

When we look at the initial round of polls for Harris, we see just what we would expect: black voters, women, younger voters, and partisan Democrats are all rallying to the Harris campaign. Harris, however, continues to struggle with the blue collar working class vote that makes up the bulk of the country's population, having so far made zero inroads compared to Biden with the white working class in particular. This is the real dilemma of the modern Democratic Party and it's only growing more pronounced in each successive election anymore. To this end, I say the running mate choice should be someone of more appeal to the manual and menial laboring punch clock workers of this country than most Democrats are these days. Josh Shapiro and Andy Beshear are the strongest options available in that regard and I say that in large part because of the issue of gun politics. While Mark Kelly's actual stance on gun policy is not different from that of Shapiro and Beshear, he is known principally for his gun control advocacy. That makes him a strong option for winning over the suburbs, but gun control is a hot-button issue in rural areas (believe you me) where hunting and sport-shooting are both a way of life and Harris herself has already made banning assault weapons a top-priority issue of hers in her early speeches. I think someone who is known primarily for other things might help the ticket fare a tad better than it otherwise might in small town America and help out just fine in the suburbs too.

The bottom line here though is that Harris solidifies the unity of partisan Democrats in general and liberals in particular. Pretty much all available options for running mates are a bit more conservative than Harris herself is and that will help expand the ticket's appeal to more moderate and independent voters. All of that is as it should be. Experts sometimes debate over whether it's more important to maximize your party's base turnout or instead to persuade outsiders to support you. Winning campaigns don't pick and choose between those options, they do both. The party base is energized and mobilizing thanks to the change at the top of the ticket. The VP pick should be about persuasion; outreach beyond the party's own ranks. And I don't just mean "outreach" in terms of appealing to the broader electorate, but also a VP pick who can potentially persuade a few stray Republicans to support Democratic initiatives because realistically Harris will be inheriting a hostile Congress if she wins. Then comes the convention: a perfect opportunity to shape the narrative around the ticket.

I agree with pretty much everything but the guns/Kelly point.

Kelly being a gun owner, having a ton of combat experience & his wife surviving getting shot in the head gives him the potential to be someone that gun owners will actually listen to.

He is someone who has more first hand experience with guns than just about anybody so he won’t come off as “just another liberal trying to take our guns!”

Obviously you’re going to have a big chunk of gun owners not willing to compromise on any gun laws but I think he has the best chance of bringing some of them over to the side of gun safety.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

I think Kelly will be the best to combat any attacks on Harris in regards to immigration and the 2nd amendment.

Appeals to moderates, has a very strong personal story that will connect with Americans, will likely be labelled a hero simply due to his military and NASA background (two things Americans love). Think of all the choices he will connect better on a human level with fellow Americans although Shapiro would probably be the better "politician" and also win Dems PA. I've seen a video of Shapiro talking, dude has Obama vibes in the way he speaks, Lol.

Dems may lose the Senate seat for Arizona in 2026 though.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 27 July 2024

Ryuu96 said:

I think Kelly will be the best to combat any attacks on Harris in regards to immigration and the 2nd amendment.

Appeals to moderates, has a very strong personal story that will connect with Americans, will likely be labelled a hero simply due to his military and NASA background (two things Americans love). Think of all the choices he will connect better on a human level with fellow Americans although Shapiro would probably be the better "politician" and also win Dems PA. I've seen a video of Shapiro talking, dude has Obama vibes in the way he speaks, Lol.

Dems may lose the Senate seat for Arizona in 2026 though.

Whoever replaces Kelly will have 2 years as Senator before the election, so plenty of time prove themselves.

Also who knows, maybe Kari Lake’s crazy ass won’t be tired of losing yet and runs again.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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haxxiy said:
Shtinamin_ said:

(snip)

That's not how any of this works. The deadlines to submit names for the general election ballots are in August and September depending on the state. You are mistaking one thing for another which would have been quite clear to anyone bothering to do some research and look at the legislation. Let alone think with an ounce of common sense since the DNC didn't even happen yet.

Maybe that's something worthy of consideration beforehand the next time you want to write electoral fanfiction...

This site below gives the rules on how a party, Democrat, Republican, or third-party would go about changing nominees before the convention, after the convention, and after the election. And has the cut-off dates for every state and D.C.

https://ballotpedia.org/State_laws_and_party_rules_on_replacing_a_presidential_nominee,_2024

This site below gives a brief detail that the Democrat Party will hold a pre-convention on Aug 1 2024 so that they can get Kamala and her VP or whoever on the ballots of states that cut-off before the DNC on Aug 19, 2024.

https://lailluminator.com/2024/07/24/democrat-virtual-vote/

Here's a second witness.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/dncs-virtual-roll-call-work-changed-biden-left/story?id=112199407

CosmicSex said:
Shtinamin_ said:

I have a set of predictions* for the 2024 US Presidential Election.

How does NJ go directly from Solid Democrat (+15) in 2020 to Republican?

CA and HI go from +30 to tilt and lean Democrat?  Thats not a thing lol.  They could both loose  half of their democratic support and still be Solid Democrat.

WA and OR go from +26 and +20 Democrat to lean Democrat?

NY was +23 Democrat in 2020.  Its not gonna turn into lean Democrat.

Georgia isn't going to go from Tossup in 2020 (Biden+<1) to Solid Republican (Trump +15)

I understand that this is your prediction or rather your desires, but I feel like the reasons you gave are either untrue, misunderstood and a little deceptive. No one like JD Vance... Trump was already defeated in 2020.  A third of Democrats are not going to switch to the GOP just cause.  That what this result would require.

Thanks for the questions :)

Well if we take a look at the polling so far with Trump vs Harris

https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-harris

Trump leads Harris in both the one-on-one and the 5-way (this is important since the third-party parties are what gave Trump the win in 2016 against Clinton, and one reason why Trump lost in 2020 is due to a lack of third-party parties.)

Right now, it looks as though we are in a "honeymoon" season for VP Kamala Harris as the nominee. (Given that she is getting donations, and got the delegate necessary, it looks to be that she will be at the top of the ticket, but I still think the democrat delegates at the DNC will choose someone else). I think once the debates happen, and if Trump wants to debate then it'll happen soon, people will lose the honeymoon energy.

We also know that the 2016 and 2020 election polling had left-leaning biases. I am not adding in 2022 and 2018 given that they weren't presidential years and republicans don't go and vote as much during the inbetween years. The projected bias between the two election years is 4.18 point underestimating Trump. Giving Trump an extra +4.18 points on election day. 
2020 had a polling overestimate of Biden. The polls showed Biden +9.01 with the result actually being Biden +4.5 (hence the +4.51 Trump underestimation projection above). 2016 has Clinton overestimated by +3.85.

I will look at CNN's latest poll giving Trump +3. If that stays true (probably won't) then Trump will be at +7.18. This will be a national shift of +11.68 points to a republican top ticket. 2020 was Democrat +4.5 → Republican +7.18 giving us a +11.68 shift.

Wall Street Journal and Forbes/Harris X both give Trump +2, giving Trump with the average bias included at +6.18.

The average between 538 and RCP is +2.45 Trump (538: +3.2 Trump & RCP: +1.7 Trump). Add the average bias and we get a +6.63 Trump.

NJ has shown polls (yes it was against Biden, but I don't see any difference between Biden's polls and Harris' polls) change from Biden +6 in March 29 2024 to Trump +1 in Jun 27 2024. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/new-jersey/
So yes, it will be very, very close in NJ.

CA has an average of +19 Biden on 538, and +21.7 in RCP. https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/california/trump-vs-biden
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/california/ This is against Biden v Trump but as I said before I don't see a difference between Biden and Harris's campaign. And I know a rather surprising number of people who are voting for Trump in LA county, some people I didn't expect really. CA is home to a large asian and hispanic population which has fallen away from both the democrats and Harris.

HI had +8 Biden in the 5 way on 538 https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/hawaii/. I can see the natives having resentment to the Harris campaign, due to how they were treated by the Biden administration.

NY had on average +7.5 Biden on RCP https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/new-york/trump-vs-biden, and +9 Biden on 538 https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/new-york/.

I will say that GA in the Atlanta suburbs Harris will probably fair better than Biden.

Harris has lost appeal from women, latinos, asians, men, 18-34, and 34-49 year olds as well too. The demographics are near the bottom of the page. https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3901

---------

I also recall someone saying that the favorability or job approval rating does not matter. 

Here are the results showing the correlation from job approval to national vote share (popular vote) for President's going for re-election.
Trump 2020 Approval: 45.8% → Vote Share 46.8%
Obama 2012 Approval: 50.0% → Vote Share 51.1%
Bush 2004 Approval 49.5% → Vote Share 50.7%
*Clinton 1996 Approval 54% → Vote Share 49.2%.

*due to an increase of voting for third-party parties

I predict, at least at this moment VP Kamala Harris will receive about 39.7% of the National Vote Share

Last edited by Shtinamin_ - on 27 July 2024

Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 160 million (was 120 million, then 140 million, then 150 million)

PS5: 130 million (was 124 million)

Xbox Series X/S: 54 million (was 60 million, then 57 million)

"The way to accomplish great things, is to be indefatigable and never rest till the thing is accomplished." - Joseph Smith Jr.

There is so much wrong with that post that I don’t even know where to begin



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:

There is so much wrong with that post that I don’t even know where to begin

Ok. You can start wherever.



Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 160 million (was 120 million, then 140 million, then 150 million)

PS5: 130 million (was 124 million)

Xbox Series X/S: 54 million (was 60 million, then 57 million)

"The way to accomplish great things, is to be indefatigable and never rest till the thing is accomplished." - Joseph Smith Jr.

I don't know how to put this nicely but it is quite frankly, very delusional, to believe the DNC will pick anyone other than Harris.



Shtinamin_ said:

This site below gives the rules on how a party, Democrat, Republican, or third-party would go about changing nominees before the convention, after the convention, and after the election. And has the cut-off dates for every state and D.C.

https://ballotpedia.org/State_laws_and_party_rules_on_replacing_a_presidential_nominee,_2024

This site below gives a brief detail that the Democrat Party will hold a pre-convention on Aug 1 2024 so that they can get Kamala and her VP or whoever on the ballots of states that cut-off before the DNC on Aug 19, 2024.

https://lailluminator.com/2024/07/24/democrat-virtual-vote/

Here's a second witness.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/dncs-virtual-roll-call-work-changed-biden-left/story?id=112199407

Nothing in the bottom two articles talk about ballot access for Georgia. 

The note about Georgia: 

>Last day for an Independent and a Political Body Candidate for President and Vice President to file a Nomination Petition to have his/her name placed on the General Election Ballot.

From what I understand, Georgia is based off political group. If you want to start a party, you need to have it in by that deadline. Democrats are already going to be on that ballot.

This guy is the COO for the Secretary of State in Georgia

Shtinamin_ said:

Right now, it looks as though we are in a "honeymoon" season for VP Kamala Harris as the nominee. (Given that she is getting donations, and got the delegate necessary, it looks to be that she will be at the top of the ticket, but I still think the democrat delegates at the DNC will choose someone else). I think once the debates happen, and if Trump wants to debate then it'll happen soon, people will lose the honeymoon energy.

Based on what? 

I've seen absolutely no indication that anyone else is likely to become the candidate. No one comes close. No one is having that conversation except for you.

Shtinamin_ said:

We also know that the 2016 and 2020 election polling had left-leaning biases. I am not adding in 2022 and 2018 given that they weren't presidential years and republicans don't go and vote as much during the inbetween years. The projected bias between the two election years is 4.18 point underestimating Trump. Giving Trump an extra +4.18 points on election day. 
2020 had a polling overestimate of Biden. The polls showed Biden +9.01 with the result actually being Biden +4.5 (hence the +4.51 Trump underestimation projection above). 2016 has Clinton overestimated by +3.85.

This isn't particularly how this works. 

The polling usually has a margin of error of about 3%, that assumes that everyone who says they will vote ends up voting. 

Clinton ended up winning by 2.1%, compared to a 3.6% prediction. 2016 is pretty well within that range. 

Shtinamin_ said:

I will look at CNN's latest poll giving Trump +3. If that stays true (probably won't) then Trump will be at +7.18. This will be a national shift of +12.01 points to a republican top ticket. 2020 was Democrat +4.5 → Republican +7.18 giving us a +11.68 shift.

This isn't how you do statistics. You can't just shift everything over. 

Larger errors are possible, but they are more statistically unlikely. In other words, a 1% error + 1% error doesn't become a 2% error. 

Trying to add these values together is complete nonsense. 

Shtinamin_ said:

Harris has lost appeal from women, latinos, asians, men, 18-34, and 34-49 year olds as well too. The demographics are near the bottom of the page. https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3901

Everything I've seen is that Harris has been reversing a lot of trends.

CNN Poll: Harris improves on Biden’s performance against Trump in early look at new matchup

Shtinamin_ said:

I also recall someone saying that the favorability or job approval rating does not matter. 

Here are the results showing the correlation from job approval to national vote share (popular vote) for President's going for re-election.
Trump 2020 Approval: 45.8% → Vote Share 46.8%
Obama 2012 Approval: 50.0% → Vote Share 51.1%
Bush 2004 Approval 49.5% → Vote Share 50.7%
*Clinton 1996 Approval 54% → Vote Share 49.2%.

*due to an increase of voting for third-party parties

I predict, at least at this moment VP Kamala Harris will receive about 39.7% of the National Vote Share

You're comparing a bunch of presidents in their second term. People who are well known factors.

People don't know who Kamala Harris is, in the same way they knew Bush in 2004. 

That is the problem I brought up. 

Instead try finding the approval ratings of vice presidents compared to their upcoming presidential election. Makes absolutely no sense to compare a vice president running for the first time to several presidents running for their second term.  

Last edited by the-pi-guy - on 27 July 2024