They're the same because Democrats try to pass things and Republicans block them so therefore no change is made and thus both parties are the same.

Just like when Republicans demanded a border bill, Democrats put forth a pretty right wing border bill, then Republicans didn't want it anymore because Trump told them not to give Democrats a win, now suddenly Republicans are screaming about a border bill again, despite rejecting one earlier, Lol. Or the same in how Republicans take away women's rights, while Democrats try to protect them.

You know what they say, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

So, I won't be more concise for your benefit, I need to write up a lot to counter so much nonsense, if you choose to not respond because you can't handle it then don't waste my time but I must say it is convenient for you isn't it? Say a bunch of nonsense, have a lot of it refuted and then say you aren't responding because it's too much, Lol. I've dealt with many people of your argument style, say a bunch of easily refuted nonsense and don't bother responding afterwards or throw out "fake news"

What the hell are you talking about? You mean actual, real, images of Russia completely destroying cities are sensationalist propaganda pieces? These aren't photoshop my dude, these are things that Russia has actually done, these are cities/countries completely destroyed by Russia, that's without getting into their atrocities in Syria, their sabotage of ammo factories in eastern European countries, their nerve agent poisonings on people in the UK, their admitting of interfering in US elections, their "little green men" conflicts in Moldova, etc.

Why are you even countering with "I cAn ShOw YoU wHaT AmErIcA dOeS" when I already admitted that America has done some horrific shit in their past? When I already said I don't like how much America supports Israel? Does that make any difference to what Russia is doing? No, it does not and unlike you I can call out both horrific shit that Russia does and horrific shit that America does, I don't defend Nazi regimes because "America bad"

You keep telling me you can do this and that and don't do this and that, I already refuted your nonsense NATO argument.

So you moan about how much I wrote then say a core part of my response was using one-liners instead of addressing your argument.

But how exactly is bringing up Hitler not a good counter to your ridiculous comment of "It's not advantageous to colonize a nation which is not interested in being colonized"? The statement makes absolutely zero sense, do you think the countries which Hitler invaded were interested in being taken over? Do you think Ukraine is interested in being taken over? How the hell do you think imperialists actually operate?

It hasn't been much of an advantage for Russia to invade Ukraine and yet they still did it and it has resulted in hundreds of thousands of dead Russians, thousands of destroyed pieces of military equipment, multiple new countries joining NATO including countries who were for years neutral and did not want to join NATO, expanding NATO's border with Russia by over 1,000km, turning the Baltic Sea into the NATO Sea, wiping out a large portion of Russia's Black Sea Fleet including a submarine and ensuring that Ukraine, a country which borders Russia, will be a lifelong enemy of Russia.

Genius!

So you're one of those, we can't trust any news, so where do you get yours from? Lol. Bit interesting that you label it also a problem with Russian media but at the same time use the well known Russian propaganda gem that NATO is the reason for Russia invading and slaughtering innocent Ukrainians, including children and the also widely used Russian propaganda piece that America promised Russia that NATO wouldn't expand (a lie).

Anyway, as I say to all the Russian simps, I don't need Western media to tell me what Russia is doing is horrific, I have my own brain and eyes, I don't need anyone to tell me what to think or feel about this topic, even if Ukraine was about to join NATO (which they weren't) it does not fucking excuse Russia invading the country, slaughtering thousands, all to stop Ukraine from joining a defensive organisation, I don't get to go stab my fucking neighbour because I heard they might join a damn neighbourhood watch, the fuck logic is that?

Russia has a NATO equivalent called CSTO, if Russia wasn't such a dickhead to everyone around it, maybe they'd be more countries interested in joining CSTO or at least not joining NATO, the only reason a lot of countries are in NATO in the first place is because they have history with Russia doing horrible shit to them and want protection in case Russia decides to do even more horrible shit to them. Oh and if Russia wasn't such a useless ally, maybe Armenia wouldn't pause participation in CSTO as well.

No I won't, I don't care what you do, deal with my long replies or go away.

So far all you've done is moan about me making long replies, insult another user and make accusations about the whole thread and how people are debating, you haven't actually managed to back up any of your statements with actual evidence and you're accusing others of not arguing in good faith? Give me a break, Lol.

In the topic of Ukraine which is what I've zoned in on, Russia is the bad guy and those defending Ukraine are doing the objectively good thing (that does not mean they're always good but in this specific scenario, they are doing good). Once again, I never said that America was the good guy in every situation but you'd know that if you bothered reading my posts. I've called out America's shitty foreign policy aspects, in the past I was one of those fully in favour of America pulling fully out of the Middle-East because it was an utter shitshow.

But in this rare moment in America's quite shitty foreign policy history, they are finally doing something good, something right, they are helping another country fight for its freedom, a thing that America fought for, a thing America would not have had without the help from its allies (France), they are objectively doing the right thing and yet people like yourself who complain about America's foreign policy just want them to abandon an ally to be slaughtered? Because America has done bad things in the past fuck everyone?

Horseshoe theory in full effect here because I'm assuming you're left wing by your comments, I could be wrong but it's the vibe I'm getting, your whole argument seems to boil around the fact that because America has been shitty in the past, America is shitty to Palestinians, so fuck Ukraine, let them die, because America is bad, Russia ain't so bad, look at the bad stuff that America has done whataboutism.

Nobody spurred the Ukraine conflict on except Russia, nobody is to blame except Russia, Europe tried to work for dozens of years with Russia, trying to please them, bend over backwards for Putin, ignoring countless atrocities committed by Putin in multiple countries, international law breaks, assassinations in Europe, sabotages in Europe, an invasion of Ukraine which started in 2014 with Crimea, we exchanged gas for "peace" and looked the other way, we thought we could make an ally of Russia but Russia was always biding their time, the Cold War never ended in Putin's eyes.

I suspect as an America that you aren't aware of how much Europe bent over backwards for Russia but you would have also seen if you actually followed the conflict, countries begging Russia not to invade Ukraine, Macron practically debasing himself on Zelensky's behalf to convince Russia not to invade, even after the invasion, the West was reluctant to step up, desperately trying to achieve peace and a deal but countless atrocities (Bucha) committed in Ukraine later by Russia made us finally realise that Putin has no interest in any "deal" or "peace" other than the complete surrender of Ukraine.

You must be one of those people who think the Baltics and other European countries are just stupid countries who can't think for themselves and only dislike Russia because America told them to. Again, American arrogance often displayed during this conflict, that these countries can't think for themselves, they're just stupid pawns of America.

You accuse America of trying to spur the conflict? The same America who tried to negotiate peace with Russia for Zelenskyy? The same America who bans Ukraine from using cluster munitions near cities? (That's a policy I agree with FWIW), the same America who bans Ukraine from using American weapons on Russian soil? (Dumb policy), the same America who gets mad at Ukraine for hitting Russian oil refineries in case Russia gets mad? (Ridiculous).

The same America waited for UK to break the taboo of sending modern MBTS? Waited for UK to break the taboo of sending Long-Range Missiles? Albeit that wasn't just America, the West has consistently took too long to send Ukraine better equipment out of fear of "escalating" things with Russia. So give me a break with this nonsense, if anything, America and its allies have been too fearful of Russia's bullshit and too cautious, too focused on trying to achieve "peace" and "escalation management" instead of "how do we help Ukraine win"

I don't think most of the people here who are upset about Russia, are in favor of US dominance.  

A lot of these people are pretty upset about America's direction with regards to Israel/Palestine. 

I'm gonna be completely honest, I don't see my mind changing from chatting here (nor did I expect to...that's why I avoid this forum) so I'll save you guys (as well myself) any further wasted time and just leave it here. See you guys around VGChartz! :)

It's probably a good thing you have exited the debate given your insistence on incorrect statements, use of rhetoric and avoidance of data.

Russia invaded Ukraine, killing thousands in the process because.....USA provocation from centuries ago.  Got it.

Unfortunately terrible things existed before America, many terrible things existed outside of America, and terrible things will continue to exist long after America. 

Imperialism existed long before America was a country. It's absurd to think it only exists because of America. 

America doing terrible things, doesn't automatically put Russia in the right. 

okay I know said I’d drop out…but you can’t leave a comment like this and not expect me to respond.

Russia is not justified in their invasion. Here’s what I believe: Imperialism = bad! (Big shock!). My main point is that Americans should look at the conflict not as an entirely unprovoked attack by a country looking to reestablish the Soviet Union, but rather that maybe there’s more to the story. In this particular instance, I perceive Russia took the bait that America was handing them. That is, America sent Ukraine invitations into NATO with the sole intent of provoking Russia to intervene via invasion. America wants this because now Russia has a war they have to deal with on their border, weakening their power and thereby strengthening the US.

Is there precedent for a superpower doing these sorts of things? Of course there are! This isn’t an America-special sort of thing, nor do I fault the powers in charge of America for pulling these sorts of strings. But just because I understand their intention doesn’t mean it’s all the sudden justifiable.

Then why is Russia basically trying to argue that it is?

A large chunk of that Putin Tucker interview was Putin arguing that Ukraine was really part of Russia, how it goes back hundreds of years. 

The supposition here is that America is apparently playing 4-D chess.

Russia is responding to NATO "threats" that are basically 16 years old, while arguing that it's really for imperialism, but Russia is lying and making themselves look bad for reasons. Russia is apparently getting involved in a war that apparently obviously will weaken them.

America really wants the war, yet there is a circus in Congress every time Ukraine asks America for help and support. 

Ryuu debunked the core NATO bits on the last page:

Neat! An actual relatively good faith response from here. I’ll get back to you later (today or sometime this week) after looking at everything, seeing what holes I could potentially poke, etc. I’ll push back, but I’m curious to see what you can give…

"Russia is not justified in their invasion"

How about ending there instead of then following up with a bunch of shitty justifications, excuses for Russia's actions and laying the blame onto others?

"Americans should look at the conflict not as an entirely unprovoked attack by a country looking to reestablish the Soviet Union"

Except that's exactly what it is and what Russia has outright said it's about more than a few times, Putin himself has straight up said that Ukraine as a country doesn't exist, it is and forever will be a part of Russia. NATO as an excuse is barely mentioned nowadays and one of many excuses they've used, among others being that Ukraine is a Nazi country which must be exterminated or that Ukraine was creating bioweapons to use against Russia.

The "Russia vs NATO" bullshit only ever served to galvanise their domestic audience into fighting "It's Russia vs the World, they want us dead!" and to fool useful idiots in the West into laying the blame at anyone but Russia, trying to decrease support for Ukraine, as you are attempting to do in this very thread where you have said we should just "leave Ukraine alone" aka let Russia slaughter millions of Ukrainians.

How can you say Russia isn't justified in their invasion and at the same time say we should abandon Ukraine to be slaughtered?

Also, you say the conflict isn't an "unprovoked attack" by Russia because America this, America that, erm, what relevance does that have exactly what America did or didn't do? Did I miss something? Is Russia attacking America? No. Who is Russia attacking? Ukraine. Did Ukraine attack Russia first? No. Then yes, it is an entirely unprovoked attack because this isn't a war between Russia and America, it's a war between Russia and Ukraine.

"Perceive Russia took the bait that America was handing them."

What bait? Wanting Ukraine to join a defensive organisation over 15 years ago and then dropping the issue?

I'll say once again, since you clearly didn't read my post but maybe others will, the first time Ukraine attempted to join NATO (around 15+ years ago), France and Germany blocked it because contrary to weird belief, America does not solely run NATO. Secondly, America started to push less to get Ukraine into NATO shortly after that. Thirdly, Ukraine was nowhere near close to being able to join NATO and why? Because they were in active conflicts via Crimea and Donbas, conflicts which Russia created! Engineered perfectly to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO.

Finally! Even if Ukraine wanted to join NATO, so fucking what? It isn't bait, Ukraine is an independent country that gets to make its own damn decisions, if they want to join NATO then they should be allowed to join NATO. You don't see NATO invading Belarus, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan for wanting to join CSTO do you? Russia is allowed a defensive pact but Europe isn't? Is that it? Some of you still don't get that NATO is entirely a defensive organisation and the only time NATO's Article 5 was activated was by America in response to 9/11.

Putin knows that NATO will only attack Russia if Russia attacks it first so he has no reason to fear NATO. The reason he doesn't want Ukraine in NATO is simple, because if Ukraine was in NATO then Russia wouldn't be able to invade it and take it over, they can't keep a proxy conflict going on forever in Donbas/Crimea as Ukraine grew stronger, they had to make their move eventually, after years of building their forces, making Europe reliant on Russia and Putin isn't getting any younger, now is the time to strike and reunify the Soviet Union.

Russia has invaded multiple countries - Afghanistan, Chechnya, Georgia, etc. Caused conflicts in others (Moldova, Ukraine) and we look the other way every-time, Russia all these years have been testing the boundaries, starting small and it has led to what we have today, a full-scale invasion and attempted takeover. This was always their plan.

"America wants this because now Russia has a war they have to deal with on their border, weakening their power and thereby strengthening the US."

Same America who repeatedly asked Russia to stop before the invasion? Same America that puts a million restrictions on Ukraine in how they can fight Russia? Same America who tried to negotiate peace with Russia on Zelenskyy's behalf? Same America who complains about Ukraine striking Russia's oil refineries because it drives the oil prices up?

Russia was never a threat to America and this war has proved it but Russia is a threat to Europe which NATO is primarily designed to protect, China is the far bigger threat to America and even America would have difficulty splitting their focus across Russia, Middle-East and China if China were to ever attack Taiwan and the biggest reason China would attack Taiwan is if Russia wins and China sees that the West can't defend its allies.

America tried to convince Russia not to go to war but war we now have, that Russia is weakening itself through Ukraine is a bonus but if America really wanted to, they could help Ukraine to weaken Russia a lot more, a lot faster, by simply lifting the dozens of restrictions that it enforces on Ukraine, by simply sending Ukraine more lethal and modern equipment.

You clearly haven't followed this war at all otherwise you'd see how cautious and pathetic the West has been at times to avoid upsetting Russia.