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Forums - Politics Discussion - Israel-Hamas war, Gaza genocide

SvennoJ on 07 January 2024
NyanNyanNekoChan said:

I remember seeing some pretty grim footage mid October, with regard to the attacks carried out by Hamas.
- Person getting beheaded with a shovel
- Hamas person shooting a dog
- A dead naked woman without a head, tied to the back of a van, getting spat on by a mob

I haven't seen the footage myself but I don't doubt horrific things happened on Oct 7.

That doesn't excuse any of the atrocities carried out by the IDF

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/08/middleeast/babies-al-nasr-gaza-hospital-what-we-know-intl/index.html
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/tamara-nassar/israel-executes-8-year-old-broad-daylight
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/shocking-testimonies-reveal-execution-dozens-elderly-people-israeli-army-gaza-strip-enar
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/security-footage-shows-israeli-forces-killing-2-palestinians-at-close-range-the-army-opens-a-probe
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/btselem-rights-group-documents-israels-short-range-execution-of-palestinians/3083827
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-09/ty-article-magazine/.premium/six-palestinians-have-died-in-israeli-prisons-during-the-war-two-found-bruised/0000018c-4ea8-df4b-a78e-dfab60f10000
https://today.lorientlejour.com/article/1362781/palestinian-23-dies-in-israeli-jail-prison-service.html
https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/104913 (187 Palestinians died in Israeli custody since 1967)
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6045/Following-shocking-testimonies-of-Israeli-killings-and-field-executions-of-Palestinians-in-Gaza,-the-Red-Cross-must-step-up-to-fulfil-its-obligations
https://www.commondreams.org/news/israeli-executions
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israel-turns-schools-military-centres-conducting-field-executions-and-mass-killings-enar
https://www.newarab.com/news/bodies-families-executed-israel-found-gaza-school
https://www.democracynow.org/2023/12/21/headlines/un_says_israeli_troops_summarily_executed_palestinians_in_gaza_city
https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-executes-elderly-gaza-man-after-propaganda-photo


Going on a revenge murder spree is not going to help anyone. The Oct 7 attacks themself were a revenge murder spree. See how that works?



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Eagle367 on 07 January 2024

The US is such a joke on this. Israel doesn't even care anything the US says all it cares about is action. US needs to stop vetting resolutions so UN can come in with a peace keeping force and stop the genocide. Israel is trying to displace all palestinians in Gaza to the Sinai desert



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Tober on 07 January 2024
NyanNyanNekoChan said:

I remember seeing some pretty grim footage mid October, with regard to the attacks carried out by Hamas.
- Person getting beheaded with a shovel
- Hamas person shooting a dog
- A dead naked woman without a head, tied to the back of a van, getting spat on by a mob

Horrendous for sure. But does that justify the murder, displacement and starvation of 2.2 million people.



Tober on 07 January 2024

If the US, UN and its allies were serious about doing something about the humanitarian catastrophe unfolding, why not drop food and medical supplies? It's not like Israel is going to shoot down a US helicopter or plane.



SvennoJ on 07 January 2024
Tober said:

If the US, UN and its allies were serious about doing something about the humanitarian catastrophe unfolding, why not drop food and medical supplies? It's not like Israel is going to shoot down a US helicopter or plane.

France and Jordan are working on that. But it seems it's coordinated with Israel and seeing how trigger happy Israel is, I don't blame them :/

Israel would be more careful not to hit US aircraft, yet the US doesn't seem to be interested in supplying more aid, only interested in talking about more aid.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/french-jordanian-airforces-drop-medical-aid-gaza-elysee-2024-01-05/





Jordan did in November as well

https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2023/11/06/jordan-airdrops-urgent-medical-aid-into-gaza-as-un-agencies-demand-immediate-humanitarian-ceasefire/?sh=60986d871068

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip-2023-11-11/card/jordan-sends-second-airdrop-of-medical-aid-to-gaza-hospital-OLnkvcGgJnf5yEj0gZeX



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SvennoJ on 08 January 2024

Change comes from within, hopefully opposition in Israel can gain traction. Lot of infighting happening as well.

Ahmad Tibi accuses Israel of “legitimising” genocide against Gaza

The member of Israel’s Knesset (parliament) Ahmad Tibi says that “this is how the Nazis spoke about the Jews”.

“The finance minister said that there are two million Nazis in Gaza,” Tibi says, referring to recent statements by Bezalel Smotrich. “This is how you legitimise genocide.” Tibi’s comments come after another member of the Knesset, Oded Forer, said he is working on having lawmaker Ofer Cassif expelled from parliament over his public support for a South African motion accusing Israel of genocide before the International Court of Justice.

Both Smotrich and National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir have called for the “voluntary migration” of Palestinians from Gaza, while Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu had suggested that Israel could drop a nuclear bomb on the coastal territory.

Protesters call for election as Netanyahu’s popularity plummets

Polls are indicating the growing unpopularity of Benjamin Netanyahu.

One by Kan, the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation, says 64 percent of Israelis believe Netanyahu’s performance in the war after 90 days is not good and Benny Gantz’s National Unity Party will win 33 seats if an election is held. Netanyahu’s Likud will win 20.

There have been tens of thousands of people protesting in Tel Aviv over the past few days. It started with demonstrators saying “bring the captives home”, but now the rhetoric is shifting towards calling for another election. They want to see the Netanyahu government gone because of a lack of trust.

But it’s not just pressure in the streets, there’s a lot of political pressure levelled against him.

Gantz and two others refused to go to a cabinet meeting today and this comes amid a wider security cabinet meeting completely falling out and being cancelled after a few hours when they were supposed to talk about “the day after the war”. Gantz put the blame directly on Netanyahu.

‘Netanyahu is not fit to lead the country’: Lapid

Israeli newspaper Haaretz reports that opposition leader Yair Lapid has called on Benny Gantz, Gadi Eizenkot and Gideon Saar to leave the government.

“The government is not capable of leading the country, and Netanyahu is not fit to lead the country,” Lapid argued. Lapid said his Yesh Atid party was ready to support a change of government either through elections or by forming an alternative government.

The newspaper quoted Lapid as saying the three ministers entered the government “because they believed it was for the good of the country, but they cannot support it”. “As long as they are there, as long as they sit under Netanyahu, they give it legitimacy,” he said.


Smothrich and Ben Gvir needs to be thrown out as well

Israel needs to resettle Gaza so ‘Nazis don’t annihilate us’: Finance minister

Bezalel Smotrich, the ultranationalist finance minister, says Israel must resettle the Gaza Strip or it will need to contend with “two million Nazis who want to annihilate us”.

Smotrich, a champion of illegal West Bank settlements, has repeatedly made inflammatory remarks about Israel’s post-war intentions in Gaza. He recently sparked an international outcry over his comments calling for Palestinians in Gaza to leave. Before the war, Smotrich sparked a backlash after saying the Palestinian people are “an invention” of the past century.

Ben-Gvir says war cabinet ‘no mandate’ to limit Gaza attack

Itamar Ben-Gvir, the hardline national security minister of Israel, is unhappy with comments the defence minister made about limiting the scope of war.

He says the war cabinet – comprised of Benjamin Netanyahu, Yoav Gallant and Benny Gantz – “does not have the mandate” to unilaterally take Israel towards a “war of attrition”. His comments are part of a pattern of growing discord among the top Israeli politicians and military commanders. They also reflect Ben-Gvir’s unyielding stance on Palestinians, which includes permanently displacing them from Gaza.

Last week, he made more headlines by saying mass emigration of Palestinians and reconstructing Israeli settlements in Gaza is “the order of the hour”.

Impeachment begins against supporter of ICJ genocide lawsuit

The chairman of the Israel Beitenu faction, Oded Forer, is collecting 70 signatures to bring about the removal of Ofer Cassif from the Israeli Knesset, according to Israeli media outlet Maariv.

Cassif – a representative of the far-left, Arab-majority Hadash coalition – earlier expressed his support for this week’s hearing at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) assessing South Africa’s accusations of genocide against Israel.

“The treasonous words of MK Cassif can no longer be heard while the blood of our soldiers and citizens cries out from the ground,” Forer was quoted as saying. “[Cassif] chose during the war to join one of the most destructive initiatives for the security of the State of Israel and thus he supports the struggle of Hamas against Israel. He must soon find himself beyond the borders of the Knesset and preferably beyond the borders of Israel.”

‘Plague of leaks’: Netanyahu wants ministers to take polygraphs

Prime Minister Netanyahu says he wants his ministers and others in top meetings to take polygraph tests as he condemned a “plague of leaks” taking over his cabinet. "Everyone who sits in cabinet and security discussions” should do this as things “cannot go on as they have so far”, he said, demanding a law be drafted to make this happen.

The embattled Israeli leader’s comments come after heated disputes among government and military officials with several ministers subsequently refusing to participate in meetings.

‘Divisions’ in Israeli government as ministers boycott meeting

Infighting among Israeli officials is growing as three ministers from the opposition National Unity Party, including party leader Benny Gantz, refused to take part in Sunday’s weekly cabinet meeting.

The boycott comes after a high-level security cabinet session discussing the future of Gaza descended into a shouting match on Thursday after right-wing ministers and military officials clashed.





Change needs to happen fast though

‘Horror growing by the minute’: Israeli rights group decries starvation policy

B’Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, says the starvation of people in Gaza is “not a byproduct of war but a direct result of Israel’s declared policy”.

“The images of children begging for food, people waiting in long lines for paltry handouts, and hungry residents charging at aid trucks are already inconceivable. The horror is growing by the minute, and the danger of famine is real. Still, Israel persists in its policy.” Changing this policy, the organisation stated, is not just a moral obligation but a requirement under international humanitarian law.

“Starvation as a method of warfare is prohibited, and when a civilian population lacks what it needs to survive, parties to the conflict have a positive obligation to allow rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian aid, including food.”



Just 6,000 aid trucks enter Gaza over past three months: Israeli group

Gisha – Legal Center for Freedom of Movement says this is the equivalent of 12 days of operations before October 7.

“Truckloads aren’t the only indicator but can give a sense of scale,” said Tania Harry, executive director of the nonprofit, which campaigns for freedom of movement for Palestinians. “This war [is] being waged in a way that completely impedes the delivery of aid on the massive scale it’s now needed,” she added.

“The UN and other humanitarians don’t deny that they are struggling, but the biggest obstacle they keep citing is lack of safe access. Without a ceasefire, there is no way to reach those in need and scale aid delivery.”

Situation at Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital ‘catastrophic’

Dr Tanya Haj-Hassan from Doctors Without Borders spoke to Al Jazeera from Amman, Jordan, about the dire situation her colleagues face in Gaza.

“Unfortunately, most of the NGOs evacuated Al-Aqsa Hospital after flyers dropped warning them the ‘area was no longer safe’ and they needed to evacuate.” Al-Aqsa Hospital is the largest and only functioning hospital in central Gaza and treats about 100 wounded each day, she said. “The situation has been catastrophic over the last few weeks. Our colleagues who were there from multiple different organisations have been reporting horrific scenes. They weren’t expecting to have to evacuate. It was a sudden increase in risk,” said Haj-Hassan.

“A colleague I know in the hospitals said each day there’s an imaginary line in this dystopian grid that determines who’s at risk of being imminently killed. He described them as war crimes disguised as a benevolent prior warning.”

‘Horrific’ number of wounded as concern grows over al-Aqsa Hospital

Fears are rising over the status of al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in central Deir el-Balah, where 600 patients and healthcare staff went missing.

The international medical charity Doctors Without Borders, known by its French initials MSF, says it evacuated its medical staff. A bullet penetrated a wall of the hospital’s intensive care unit on Friday and “drone attacks and sniper fire were just a few hundred metres from the hospital”, said Carolina Lopez, MSF’s emergency coordinator there.

The hospital received 150 to 200 wounded people daily in recent weeks.

The International Rescue Committee and Medical Aid for Palestinians said it was also forced to withdraw from the hospital. “The amount of injuries being brought in over the last few days has been horrific,” surgeon Nick Maynard with the IRC medical team said.



SvennoJ on 08 January 2024

About 1 in 100 people in Gaza has been killed since October 7, Palestinian statistics show

From CNN’s Kareem Khadder, Richard Allen Greene and Ivana Kottasova

About one out of every 100 people in Gaza has been killed since the war between Israel and Hamas erupted on October 7, Palestinian statistics show. 

At least 22,835 people have been killed, the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Ramallah announced in its daily update on Monday. That’s 1% of Gaza’s total population of 2.27 million people, according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics.

Remember Covid-19? That ended up killing less than 0.1% of people. Ukraine war has so far cost 70K soldiers their lives and 10K civilian deaths. 0.18% in nearly two years of fighting.

The Ministry generates its data from hospitals in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip. It said 58,416 people had been injured. That is more than 2.6% of the population, or more than one in 40 people. 

The Hamas-controlled Ministry of Health in Gaza, which tends to have slightly higher numbers than the ministry in Ramallah due to delays in transmitting information to the West Bank, put the total at 23,084 dead on Monday. It said 58,926 people had been injured. 

Israel has said more than 8,000 of the dead are militants it is targeting in its war on Hamas. The Ministry of Health in Ramallah says more than 5,300 of the dead are women and more than 9,000 of them are children. Together that would make up nearly two-thirds of the dead.  

23,000 dead, 8,700 men, Israel considers pretty much all men as militants? Fits the way they target people...






Euro-med monitor estimates it at over 30,000 deaths (including the missing presumed dead under the rubble)

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/4th-month-israeli-genocide-4-percent-gazas-population-dead-missing-or-injured-70-percent-strips-infrastructure-destroyed-enar

According to Euro-Med Monitor estimates, 30,676 Palestinians have been killed during the Israeli attacks as of Thursday evening, including 28,201 civilians. The death toll includes 12,040 children, 6,103 women, 241 health workers, and 105 journalists. An additional 58,960 individuals have been injured, hundreds of whom are currently in serious condition.

The Euro-Med Monitor team further reported that about 1.9 million Palestinians have been displaced from their homes and residential areas in the Gaza Strip amid a lack of safe shelters, as 67,946 housing units have been completely destroyed and 179,750 housing units have been partially damaged. According to the team, the facilities targeted by Israel during its ongoing attacks include 318 schools; 1,612 industrial facilities; 169 health facilities, including 23 hospitals, 57 clinics, and 89 ambulances; 201 mosques; three churches; and 169 press offices.



JRPGfan on 08 January 2024
Tober said:
NyanNyanNekoChan said:

I remember seeing some pretty grim footage mid October, with regard to the attacks carried out by Hamas.
- Person getting beheaded with a shovel
- Hamas person shooting a dog
- A dead naked woman without a head, tied to the back of a van, getting spat on by a mob

Horrendous for sure. But does that justify the murder, displacement and starvation of 2.2 million people.

It doesn't... however I'm pretty sure Isreal is doing this to punish the civilan population, reguardless of what they said.
They want people there to suffer and hurt, for supporting hamas, and for allowing groups to be recruited into it.
They want people (normal civilians) to remember this for a long time to come. This is a message, sent in suffering and death by them.
This is what comes of it.... its basically a fuc* around and find out, we dont care anymore.

Yes, this borderline a genocide imo.
If it was any worse, it would be "lets just kill them all, and be done with this issue once and for all".
Deaths would be in the millions, it would not be "1.9 million Palestinians displaced".

I dont think people realise how much hate there is between both sides, on this.



SvennoJ on 08 January 2024

The UN has not forgotten the Oct 7 massacre either.

UN experts say alleged sexual torture by Hamas on October 7 may amount to crimes against humanity


Experts at the United Nations say crimes committed against civilians during Hamas' October 7 attacks on Israel amounted to war crimes and could qualify as crimes against humanity.

In a statement from Geneva, the experts — Alice Jill Edwards, a special rapporteur on torture and other punishment, and Morris Tidball-Binz, a special rapporteur on "extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions" — called for full accountability for the widespread killings and alleged sexual torture.

“As armed Palestinian groups rampaged through communities in Israel bordering the Gaza strip, thousands of people were subjected to targeted and brutal attacks, the vast majority of whom were civilians,” the statement said. “The growing body of evidence about reported sexual violence is particularly harrowing." 

The UN experts said that allegations of sexual torture included rape and gang rapes and that there were mutilations and gunshot wounds to genital areas of victims as well as other signs of sexual violence.   

“These acts constitute gross violations of international law, amounting to war crimes which, given the number of victims and the extensive premeditation and planning of the attacks, may also qualify as crimes against humanity," the experts said.

Hamas has repeatedly denied allegations that its fighters committed sexual violence during the attack despite the evidence.




How many of those testimonies are reliable doesn't really matter. Not sure why there is a debate on whether it was a crime against humanity. If Wikepedia is accurate on the definition, then yes it was. (Next to being the worst terrorist attack since the Camp Speicher Massacre in 2014 and the 3rd deadliest terrorist attack in history)

Apart from the sexual violence, Hamas has never denied nor prosecuted anyone for killing and kidnapping Israelis. It was not an isolated event, nor sporadic, the tit for tat has been going on from before Hamas even took control of Gaza. So apart from a horrific terrorist attack on its own, it fits the definition of crimes against humanity.

Crimes against humanity are widespread or systemic criminal acts which are committed by or on behalf of a de factoauthority, usually by or on behalf of a state, that grossly violate human rights. Unlike war crimes, crimes against humanity can be committed during both peace and war.[1] They are not isolated or sporadic events because they are part of a government policy or they are part of a widespread practice of atrocities which is tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority.[2] They do not need to be part of an official policy, but they only need to be tolerated by authorities.




CNN didn't bother to report the end of the statement, still no impartial investigation allowed

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/01/un-experts-demand-accountability-victims-sexual-torture-and-unlawful

“We are deeply conscious of the active conflict in Gaza and Israel and the severe humanitarian crisis. We urge all parties to agree a ceasefire, abide by international law, and investigate any crime alleged during the armed conflict,” the experts said.

The experts recall their previous statement on the need for independent and impartial investigations for all rights violations, including those in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

They have already raised these issues through a letter addressed to the State of Palestine as the official UN Observer State and party to relevant human rights and humanitarian law treaties. A copy of the letter was also sent to the de facto authorities in Gaza [Hamas] which claimed responsibility for the overall attack and bears command responsibility as well as has human rights obligations in light of their exercise of government-like functions. A copy was also sent to the Government of Israel, which has territorial jurisdiction over the crimes.




Israel doesn't want anyone to see what they're doing

Israeli Supreme Court rejects petition to ease Gaza access for foreign journalists

A petition presented to the court by the Foreign Journalists Association asking for reporters to enter Gaza without an Israeli military escort has been rejected, the Israeli news website Walla says. The report said the court argued that allowing journalists in would endanger the Israeli military.

Almost every foreign reporter who has entered Gaza since the beginning of the war has travelled with the Israeli military, adhering to military rules and agreeing to allow footage to be reviewed by the military before its publication.

Critics of the policy argue that the restrictions against the entry of journalists into Gaza are an attempt by Israel to prevent coverage of its attacks, which have killed more than 23,000 Palestinians.

Israeli bombardment kills two more Palestinian journalists: Gaza government

Gaza’s Government Media Office has confirmed the deaths of two more Palestinian journalists – Abdullah Baris and Muhammad Abu Dayer.

“They were martyred by the ongoing Israeli occupation bombing of the Gaza Strip,” it said.

The total number of journalists killed in Gaza since October 7 has now reached 112, the office said.



And this doesn't bode much confidence in Israel playing the victim

AIPAC mobilises against US Senate resolution to investigate Israeli abuses

The pro-Israel lobby group American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) has sent an email to supporters asking them to contact their US senators in opposition to the measure that was introduced by Vermont’s Senator Bernie Sanders last month.

The resolution would require the secretary of state to produce a report on Israel’s human rights practices within 30 days.

Biden is seeking more than $10bn in additional military aid to Israel, but US law prohibits security assistance to countries that engage “in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights”.

“For decades, both Republican and Democratic administrations have provided support and security assistance to Israel without linking our aid to specific Israeli policies,” AIPAC said in its email. “Such conditioning would undermine US national security interests.”



SvennoJ on 08 January 2024

Probably one of those things Israel doesn't want independent organizations to look at

Haaretz calls for probe into Israeli tank fire during October 7 attack

The leading Israeli newspaper’s editorial board said the Israeli army should investigate an incident where witnesses say an Israeli tank fired at a house in Kibbutz Be’eri with Hamas fighters and Israeli captives inside.

“Above all, it must disclose whether the so-called Hannibal Directive – which states that hostage-taking should be prevented even at the price of harm to our own forces – was used against the Israelis held hostage in that house,” the newspaper said.

The editorial board stressed that a probe must be conducted now, not after the war, because it relates to the fate of the remaining captives who are being held captive in Gaza.



‘Israeli aggression on Gaza has exceeded all limits’: Jordan’s foreign minister

In a phone call with France’s top diplomat, Jordanian Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Ayman Safadi said: “The Israeli aggression on Gaza has exceeded all humanitarian, legal and moral limits in a way that invalidates any argument used for the Security Council not to take a binding decision to stop it.”

France presides over the UN Security Council this month.

Safadi stressed that the risk of the war widening in scope increases every day that Israel continues its killing and destruction in Gaza and that the inability of the international community to shoulder its legal and moral responsibilities and take a strict position that imposes an end to the aggression reflects a double standard and dangerous selectivity in the application of international law and causes great damage to its standing and to the reputation and interests of many Western countries.

‘The war must stop and not be expanded’: Top EU diplomat

Josep Borrell said that during a trip to the Middle East, he “took stock of the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza with unbearable numbers of civilian casualties and the risk of regional escalation”.

“The only way to prevent these tragedies from happening again is to reach a political solution to the conflict. The war must stop and not be expanded,” he wrote on social media.





Israel denies WHO’s request to deliver medical supplies

The World Health Organization (WHO) says Israeli authorities have denied a request it made to deliver medical supplies to the Central Drug Store in Gaza City and al-Awda Hospital in Jabalia.

“This marked the fourth denial of a mission to the al-Awda Hospital in Jabalia and Central Drug Store in Gaza City since December 26, leaving five hospitals in northern Gaza without access to life-saving medical supplies and equipment,” the WHO said.

Israel refused to allow Norway to transfer tax revenues to PA: Shtayyeh

Palestinian Authority (PA) Prime Minister Mohammad Shtayyeh says that Israel refused a US proposal for Norway to transfer to the PA the sum of the tax revenues Israel has been withholding.

Last month, Israel refused to transfer roughly $275m in tax revenues that it collects on the PA’s behalf. The sum amounts to what the PA allocates for services and salaries in the Gaza Strip, but also makes up roughly 30 percent of the total monthly revenues owed to the PA.

In response, the PA has refused to accept any of the funds, saying Israel – as an occupying force – is under obligation as per international law to provide services to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The US has been pressuring Israel to reverse its decision, but Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has refused to backtrack on his decision amid pressure from Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich.