ice said:
I wonder if these reviews will even have any impact, SoT and SoD2 both had the infamous 69 metas and both became massive hits lol
Thank god for Game Pass, without it I think this game would be dead in the water |
Sea of Thieves was knocked for a lack of content but the gameplay loop was very fun, State of Decay has always been knocked for technical reasons but it has a very hardcore group of gamers (millions) who like the gameplay loop and look past the technical issues. It's a bit like Ark II, I've no doubt it will score poorly due to technical reasons but the fans won't care and it will sell millions.
Redfall on the other hand, doesn't sound like it has a very engaging gameplay loop nor content, it sounds like it doesn't know what it wants to be, State of Decay and Sea of Thieves had an identity even at launch, both are very unique titles and there's nothing really out there like them, meanwhile there's a thousand looter shooters.
I think if they weren't under Xbox, Redfall would have released in 2022 and Arkane Austin's life would be on the line.
Spade said:
For every shitty rated game that ended up doing well, there's a shitty game that ended up completely bombing... aka Days Gone, Forespoken, Crackdown. I think the difference is post launch support. SoD 2 and SoT have both incredible support after launch with active fixes, new content. Same with No Man's Sky. I don't see Redfall following that trend. I feel like it's more of a Saints Row situation (won't tank the studio), but will just be a game they move on from as soon as possible. |
They'll support it for about ~1 year I think. If this was a concept which was "pushed" onto them by Bethesda Softworks then I think they'll want to move on as soon as possible unless it somehow gets a strong player-base. I think they'll want to move back to their DNA and show everyone they've still got it. Redfall was dropped as a GaaS due to Microsoft (IIRC According to Jason, they removed the store and stuff).
Spade said:
Yeah we can't have it both ways. Nauts 2, and Hi Fi were both before acquisition.. so can't credit those W's if you don't want to credit the Redfall Ls  |
That's not really what I do Tbf, I'm just adding context.
I don't credit Xbox for Hi-Fi Rush, they had nothing to do with it, but nevertheless it is a very high quality exclusive for Xbox and shows how strong of a studio that Tango Gameworks are and that is like to continue without Xbox interference.
I'd also say the same about InXile, Obsidian, Double Fine, etc. Did Xbox have anything to do with Wasteland 3? No. But it shows that InXile is a studio with high pedigree behind them and that is more likely to continue without Xbox interference.
I do give Xbox some credit for Psychonauts 2 simply because Tim Schafer himself credits them as being important to its development and enabling them to add a bunch of cut content back into the game, such as boss fights, which were praised by reviewers.
As for Redfall, Xbox is too hands off with Bethesda but honestly even if they weren't it doesn't feel like there was much they could do, sure it has some technical issues and the content is light but...
The issues go way beyond content and technical issues, based on reviews, the game at its core is simply lacking, the DNA of the game isn't clicking with most reviewers, adding some content and bug fixing isn't going to fix that, the game would need a soft-reboot and at that point we're talking probably an almost 2 year delay.
Delaying to Holiday 23 would only add bug fixing and polishing, you shouldn't expect a lot of content to be added with a 5-6 month delay, adding content also creates new bugs and issues to fix, the final stage of development is never adding content but bug fixing and polishing and as we've seen with Jedi Survivor and many other titles, reviewers don't give a shit about technical issues if the game at its core is great.
Redfall at its core doesn't seem to be liked by reviewers. Delaying to Holiday 23 probably turns it from a mid 60s to a high 60s-low 70s at best. Is it worth it at that stage? Sometimes it's better to just cut your losses and move them on to better things, take it as a learning experience, Arkane isn't suited for multiplayer focused titles.
Spade said:
Idk mang... I feel like last gen was way worse. Just recency bias hitting us hard and we just taking consecutive Ls. I wonder if this is a pattern. Like we take Ls before the June event. Clearly this is the worst so far with Redfall and ABK.
Last gen we almost had the death of Xbox, cancelled games (Phantom Dust, and Scalebound), closed studios with Lionhead, overly reliant on the big three xbox staples as well. Games will take about 6 years, so I'm hoping we see some goodies in June from Bethesda studios we haven't heard from. A lot of newer IPs as well like Hifi, Grounded, Avowed. Way more projects in the pipeline and heavy investment in first party. Lastly, minus SE, much better Japanese support as well. Continual Yakuza, Tales of back on Xbox, Persona on Xbox, Street Figher and newer fighting games back on Xbox too.
360 > Series > One
In terms of generation for me so far. Can't count OG Fatty as I was a Gamecube simp. |
It's recency bias for sure. The past couple weeks have been bad but we were so high in January. People forget that in the Xbox One era we had multiple discussions about the legit possibility of Xbox being shutdown, Lol. Xbox usually gets their bad news out of the way before E3 too.
Agreed with you. This gen has very high potential.
I'd also add that Halo 5 released in Xbox One era which caused significant damage to the Halo brand cause the story was shit (and had a poor launch, content wise) and it's Halo 5's fault that Halo Infinite took so long and had such a turbulent development, if Halo 5 was as well received as Infinite at launch then I don't think 343 does a "soft-reboot" and instead continues on from Halo 5.
In some ways, it's positive, I loved Halo Infinite's Campaign/Story but it feels a result of trying to fix Halo 5's mess and inject some life back into Halo.
Ryse was mid, Quantum Break was good but I think it's overrated, Dead Rising 3 began a downward spiral (even if I enjoyed it) and Dead Rising 4 killed its franchise. Their best exclusive near the start was a money-hat (Titanfall) although Sunset Overdrive and Ori were both great. ReCore I actually really enjoyed and so did a lot of us it seems but that is also a 60s meta, Lol. Crackdown 3 killed its franchise.
Forza Horizon overtook Forza Motorsport in that gen cause it was amazing but I feel like as a result, Motorsport flew under the radar.
The only new IP created by Xbox which survived the Xbox One era was Sea of Thieves? I think? Lol.
Starfield alone should be bigger and better than 60% of Xbox One era exclusives, Lol. Halo Infinite destroys Halo 5, Forza Horizon continues to be a W. Grounded, Pentiment, As Dusk Falls are actually well received new IPs from Xbox 1st party, so we're almost on par with the entire Xbox One era there already. Lmao.
shikamaru317 said:
I definitely feel like Bethesda/Zenimax had a major identity crisis last gen. Their singleplayer games, which they were known for, weren't selling quite as much as they had hoped, and so they got the crazy idea to try and work multiplayer into their games to try and boost their revenue with GaaS microtransactions. We ended up with Fallout 76, Wolfenstein Youngblood, Deathloop, and Redfall each having varying degrees of multiplayer integration, and each ended up disappointing many fans of each of the series/developers. It definitely feels like Redfall was a part of that Zenimax multiplayer push from mid-late last gen, even though it released much later than the other 3 did, we know it started development in mid 2018, before Fallout 76 and Wolfenstein Youngblood had released and subsequently underperformed both commercially and critically. Feels like by the time those 2 had released and flopped they felt like Redfall was too far along to cancel it, so they just redesigned it to remove the microtransactions and tried to increase it's singleplayer appeal, but to no avail. Arkane in particular really suffered under Zenimax leadership it feels, Dishonored 2 and Prey didn't sell as well as Zenimax had hoped, so Dishonored 3 ended up getting rushed out too early as Dishonored: Death of the Outsider (a mistake of a game as killing off the Outsider too early will complicate making future Dishonored games). Then Zenimax ended up cutting the budget they had to work with on Deathloop and Redfall, which lead to cost cutting measures like dropping their internal Void engine, artificially lengthening Deathloop with it's time loop mechanic, and cutting corners on the graphics on Redfall via mediocre texture work and lots of reused assets sprinkled throughout. Arkane I feel will really benefit from being under Xbox moving forward. Before their games needed to meet Zenimax's rather high sales expectations, but thanks to Gamepass a proper new Dishonored or Prey game could be made by them, without cost cutting measures, since the goal is now Gamepass players rather than high full price sales like it was under Zenimax, and we know those games will pull in big player counts. Arkane needs to return to what their fans love about them, immersive sims. |
Bethesda was owned by Providence Equity and Redfall began development under them so yeah. Their identity crisis seems to be that they needed money and the cash cows (Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Starfield) are either years away or don't release enough, their only other major seller really is Doom and they even tried to attach (and cancelled) some multiplayer modes for that.
Practically everything recent from Arkane flopped, Death of an Outsider, Dishonoured 2, Prey, Mooncrash, etc. Even Wolfenstein II from MachineGames underperformed IIRC. They then tell Arkane to try to think up multiplayer ideas, I've no doubt they told the same to ID Software and MachineGames if they told that to Arkane. Got to find a continued stream of cash.
They have no really "continued stream" of revenue like some publishers have aside from re-releasing Skyrim a thousand times which puts immense pressure on Bethesda Game Studios to keep everyone else alive. So Fallout 76 happens and it's a disaster...Credit to them they stuck with that and it sounds like (based on what I've read from gamers), it's actually enjoyable nowadays.
Elder Scrolls Online happened too which I'm grateful for but I heard it wasn't good at launch but at least that was forming a new team for a specific purpose rather than putting an old team on something entirely new to them, that is the way it should be done.
Agreed that Arkane should benefit a lot under Xbox, they tried multiplayer and it failed, it's time to do what you do best and I think Xbox will want them to do that too, Game Pass has no immersive sims in the 1st party and that's what Game Pass needs, studios to fill gaps and appeal to a wide variety of subscribers.
havoc00 said:
If they do go back to there roots and give us an immersive sim, we are looking at what earliest end of this gen release? Just seems like this gen for MS is almost a write off at this point and just needs a strong finish to give them even a shot at competing next gen |
Depends on a lot of factors, Jason Schreier said recently that if a new game entered development today (pre-production included), due to increasing development times, it wouldn't likely to be ready until PS6 gen.
Seems like AAA sequels nowadays take about 3-4 years on average while new IPs and reboots take about 4-6 years, as an example we can use God of War (2018) which took 5 years (an effective reboot) and Horizon Zero Dawn (a new IP) took around 6 years and those were released about 5-6 years ago, development time is only increasing.
I wouldn't call this gen a write-off as a lot of Xbox games which entered development around 2018-2019 should release in this generation still but something like The Elder Scrolls won't and I'm pretty sure Microsoft knows that and is prepared for a few of their massive IPs to release in the next gen and wait it out. Starfield will be huge but an exclusive Elder Scrolls will be absolutely gigantic.
shikamaru317 said:
Well, Arkane Lyon should definitely release something else this gen. They released Deathloop in 2021, so I would imagine their next game will be out by 2026 at the latest. The question is, what will that game be? A sequel to Deathloop, a new Dishonored, a new IP? The 1 year update for Deathloop added a new epilogue scene which teased a sequel, though with the timeloop broken I would assume said sequel would be more of an immersive sim and less of a roguelike, and since Deathloop is set in the Dishonored universe but about a century afterward, would they even bother to call it Deathloop 2 since the loop mechanic would be dead, or would they just make the sequel to Deathloop a new Dishonored game since it is set in the Dishonored universe? Or will they make a new Dishonored game set much earlier in the timeline than Deathloop 2 would be set, say 20 or so years after Dishonored 2 in the late 1800's? Or will they make a new IP? Arkane Austin, their next game is definitely looking to be next-gen Xbox territory around about 2028 I'd guess. Hopefully they make a new Prey or a new immersive sim IP next. |
Hope they do a Prey 2...It would be quicker and it's a cool IP.
PixelPirate said:
I just wonder what happens next. Aaron en Phil will probably just pretend the game is fine etc on social media, but surely some discussions will be held internally. |
Probably talk to Pete Hines as he's the Head of Bethesda Softworks Publishing now.
According to Klobrille (a legit Xbox insider who is very close to Xbox), Xbox were blindsided by the 60fps news, which leaves me with questions, why is Bethesda Softworks not telling Xbox this stuff? Are they afraid or something that Xbox is going to takeover if they get too involved? Xbox should be paying more attention to Bethesda Softworks too.
There needs to be a reminder that Bethesda Softworks represents Xbox now. I also now wonder who's decision it even was to release Redfall in May. I don't think it would have made much of a difference even if it was delayed to Holiday 23 and Xbox already gave them an extra year but who decided "lets just get this out and move on"
There needs to be someone hired whose sole purpose it is, is to ensure that Xbox and Bethesda are on the same page, a sort of "brand" manager. I know it may be scary for Bethesda but this wouldn't be integrating them into Xbox, it would just be someone ensuring they're synced with Xbox for the benefit of both of them, Xbox doesn't need to be overly hands on but they're too hands off right now.
Disney is hiring a role like that to oversee their Marvel, Lucas, etc, branches and ensure they're all on the same page.
Zippy6 said:
The first AAA release since December 2021 and this is the reception. Forza can't come soon enough. |
Starfield is first in September, Forza is rumoured for October.
Unlucky for Starfield though cause now they have an incredible amount of pressure to deliver, Lol.
If Motorsport was first it would probably chill some people out.
EspadaGrim said:
Arkane Austin really dragging Arkane Lyon down huh
For a “Current Gen” game that was delayed for nearly a year this is what they manage to crap out? Even Dead Island 2 is better on a Technical level and they use the same engine plus it’s a Cross-Gen game. |
Dead Island 2 is better technically than Jedi Survivor too.
Who'd thought that Dead Island 2 would be performing better than most AAAs released in 2023?
Dead Island 2 made a smart choice though, it isn't really open world, which I wasn't sure on at first but it works, Jedi Survivor and Redfall are both open-world and honestly Unreal Engine just f*cking sucks with open world titles, we hear it time and time again, Unreal simply isn't good on open worlds, I don't know if Unreal Engine 5 has fixed that.
Josh Sawyer spoke about it before.
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