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Forums - Politics Discussion - Elon Musk acquires a 9 percent stake in Twitter

 

Is free speech suppressed on the internet's main public squares

Yes 32 52.46%
 
No 27 44.26%
 
Undecided 2 3.28%
 
Total:61
numberwang said:
RolStoppable said:

It has become a regular occurence in recent years that republicans made laws in states where they have control, laws that are so mindboggingly ridiculous that they push society 50 to 200 years back in time, living up to Trump's slogan of making America great again (i.e. giving more means of oppression back to white people or religion). On the other hand, it's rare to hear of any laws made by democrats that are facepalm-worthy.

Democrats just raised military spending to new heights, refused student loan forgiveness, enabled draconian lockdown laws, pushed the USA close to a nuclear conflict with Russia, created the highest inflation in US history, open borders, pushing censorship for science, supporting regime changes throughout the world, etc. The uniparty has different talking points to dazzle smoothbrains but actual policies are identical.

When trying to show that democratic politicians have moved as far to the left as republican politicians have moved to the right the response "they both do the same policies" isn't an argument. We are talking about state level politicians on the republican side putting out laws to reverse marriage equality, disallow trans people from bathrooms, and define treatment of trans kids as child abuse. If you have examples of the democratic state politicians doing things that are crazy left in your mind to counter there examples that would be interesting but I assure you "it's all one uniparty" isn't really a response as these bills are not being passed by democrats. Like Rol said I think a lot of people who argue that the rhetoric is the same on both sides are comparing the twitter left to actual republican politicians with power. 



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"fascinating transition"

"chilling threat"



I see, it was only for a brief moment that it looked like numberwang was going to engage in an actual discussion. Now he's back to his usual self of posting content without making any concrete points.

Although I suppose it was to be expected after he had thrown out the word "uniparty" multiple times.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Shipments

Torillian said:
ConservagameR said:

What proof or evidence is there that this was a once in a lifetime pandemic? It goes both ways and nobody truly knows, we can only guess.

Masking if it's clearly useful enough isn't so much the problem in a bubble I'd assume, but more so it's the question of how useful the types were, how useful they were for everyone, and why no money for (better masks) if there was a definite need, with all the money that was thrown around?

I would also guess, in a world where every type of new safety measure tends to become the norm, like our new normal, it's not ridiculous to believe that people will assume the next illness, regardless of severity, and so on, will automatically lead to masking up. Again, nobody truly knows.

I wouldn't say Clinton was an idiot overall. He was a relatively decent President in comparison. There was the whole Monica thing which wasn't exactly handled professionally, and not professional to begin with, but that's getting way off topic.

that's true I can't predict the future. When I say once-in-a-lifetime it's because right now for many people around the world (probably all) this is the single largest pandemic in their lifetime. Kind of like when I lived through a 500 year flood, that doesn't mean another 500 year flood won't happen in my lifetime but it's unlikely. 

Just adding a little balance to the conversation.

Personally I'd say both your point, and Dulfites point, are worthy points made. The odds we have another pandemic like covid is very unlikely. The odds that Democrats 25 years ago would have handled covid differently, and more properly as per those on the right, is quite likely.

Neither of you could show for certain that would be the case, because nobody can be certain of the future, or an untraveled past path.



RolStoppable said:
ConservagameR said:

In the same sense, in America, as per the liberals, everything that doesn't fit what the Dems are doing or saying, is not even conservative, but automatically racist or Nazi. A growing portion of both sides is getting more radical.

Bill Maher, who's been extremely against Trump and the conservatives over the past 4 or so years, has been saying recently the center hasn't changed much, but the left has gone crazy for some time and is way out to left field. He also thinks the right has shifted more right, mostly due to Trump since 2016.

My point is pretty simple. If someone like Maher is saying the left has gone way too far left, Dulfites point about past Democrats (like President Clinton) reacting less harshly to a covid type scenario would seem reasonably likely. How exactly they would've reacted obviously can't be known for certain.

Dulfite, I see the point you're trying to make beyond covid, but Elon hasn't taken over Twitter just yet. No need to end up blue in the face. A virtue, patience is.

It's important to properly determine what the political left and the political right actually are in the USA. I wouldn't make that call by looking at what extremists on either side do or demand, but rather what the politicians in charge of the democrats and republicans actually do, namely the bills and laws they push for and through.

It has become a regular occurence in recent years that republicans made laws in states where they have control, laws that are so mindboggingly ridiculous that they push society 50 to 200 years back in time, living up to Trump's slogan of making America great again (i.e. giving more means of oppression back to white people or religion). On the other hand, it's rare to hear of any laws made by democrats that are facepalm-worthy.

I've only ever watched a few videos of Maher, but I am still quite sure that the left that he is complaining about is not the left that is making the laws, but rather the vocal minority which is indeed crazy.

Don't the people vote for the politicians though? Because if they don't, well, let's not go there.

The system is also set up so the minority shouldn't get ignored and crushed and as you stated, it's the Republicans who try and crush the minorities, not the Democrats. This goes along with the idea that conservatives are more so against democracy and would rather simply have few rulers with slaves.

So if the crazy left as you agree, is a vocal minority, it would then stand to reason, that the Democrat politicians are actually listening and setting their agenda at least partially to that crazy minorities liking. Otherwise the Democrat politicians are purposely ignoring their voters, the poor minority, which would go against the idea that the liberals are the one's hardcore for a just democracy.

I'm not saying conservatives are right and liberals are wrong, I'm just pointing out that both sides have their flaws, which they tend to like to ignore.

Last edited by ConservagameR - on 15 April 2022

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numberwang said:

Calling this a "once in a lifetime pandemic" shows how much people had moved in a echo chamber because of censorship. Information and consent are a necessity for a functional democracy. The perpetual lockdowns and censorship in China right now prove what an absurd mistake zero-covid policies were and are even though they were promoted by the uniparty and their media in fake "free democracies". I hope that Elon can bring a bit of balance back towards balanced information but I doubt that he is successful. We shouldn't have to rely on "good oligarchs" to save information and consent.

I should have mentioned in my last post about this, that while nobody wants to have to go through what some believe is taking place, that the Founding Fathers did make it clear that tough times would lie ahead no matter how well the system they had developed worked. That the people would have to constantly be keeping an eye on things, otherwise eventually the system would teeter too far one way, or bad actors would get put in charge, leading to things having to be fixed the hard way, if not the worst way, by the people.

"Good oligarchs" as you put it, were responsible for the creation of America. It's not really surprising that good oligarchs would potentially need to eventually rise again and save it.

numberwang said:

Democrats just raised military spending to new heights, refused student loan forgiveness, enabled draconian lockdown laws, pushed the USA close to a nuclear conflict with Russia, created the highest inflation in US history, open borders, pushing censorship for science, supporting regime changes throughout the world, etc. The uniparty has different talking points to dazzle smoothbrains but actual policies are identical.

It's easy for some, whoever they are, to ignore what may be good or bad, useful or disadvantageous, when it's a balancing act. When you've got someone else to either help prop you up, back you up, or cover you up, it's not always easy to see where you may be wrong.

It's not typically until they, end up on their own, with nobody but themselves to decide, to either accept the glory or defeat of the execution of their idea's. While that in itself is highly unlikely to occur within a Country, it can take place if enough people move away from the problem area's and into far better run locations.

Last edited by ConservagameR - on 15 April 2022

Side note.

Twitter sell to Elon yet?



ConservagameR said:

Don't the people vote for the politicians though? Because if they don't, well, let's not go there.

The system is also set up so the minority shouldn't get ignored and crushed and as you stated, it's the Republicans who try and crush the minorities, not the Democrats. This goes along with the idea that conservatives are more so against democracy and would rather simply have few rulers with slaves.

So if the crazy left as you agree, is a vocal minority, it would then stand to reason, that the Democrat politicians are actually listening and setting their agenda at least partially to that crazy minorities liking. Otherwise the Democrat politicians are purposely ignoring their voters, the poor minority, which would go against the idea that the liberals are the one's hardcore for a just democracy.

I'm not saying conservatives are right and liberals are wrong, I'm just pointing out that both sides have their flaws, which they tend to like to ignore.

I have a hard time following your train of logic for the simple reason that it makes a few assumptions that are definitely not true to begin with.

What's clear is that it's easy to tell that the democrat politicians are ignoring the crazy far-left, because if they didn't, the bills and laws they pushed for and through would be very different. It isn't contradictory that at least a portion of the crazy far-left will vote the democrats regardless due to the political system of the USA. While the democrats may not do what the crazy far-left wants, they remain the far better option of the two major parties when it comes to voting.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Shipments

RolStoppable said:
ConservagameR said:

Don't the people vote for the politicians though? Because if they don't, well, let's not go there.

The system is also set up so the minority shouldn't get ignored and crushed and as you stated, it's the Republicans who try and crush the minorities, not the Democrats. This goes along with the idea that conservatives are more so against democracy and would rather simply have few rulers with slaves.

So if the crazy left as you agree, is a vocal minority, it would then stand to reason, that the Democrat politicians are actually listening and setting their agenda at least partially to that crazy minorities liking. Otherwise the Democrat politicians are purposely ignoring their voters, the poor minority, which would go against the idea that the liberals are the one's hardcore for a just democracy.

I'm not saying conservatives are right and liberals are wrong, I'm just pointing out that both sides have their flaws, which they tend to like to ignore.

I have a hard time following your train of logic for the simple reason that it makes a few assumptions that are definitely not true to begin with.

What's clear is that it's easy to tell that the democrat politicians are ignoring the crazy far-left, because if they didn't, the bills and laws they pushed for and through would be very different. It isn't contradictory that at least a portion of the crazy far-left will vote the democrats regardless due to the political system of the USA. While the democrats may not do what the crazy far-left wants, they remain the far better option of the two major parties when it comes to voting.

You already pointed out that the Republicans are against the minority, which is a really bad thing and makes them poor leadership. If the Democrats are doing the same thing, ignoring the minority, doesn't that also mean it's a really bad thing and they're poor leadership?

Contradictory isn't really the right word to describe it. It would just be extremely illogical. Some people will work for free, in the hopes that they will eventually get paid. It doesn't take long before those people eventually leave and go elsewhere if they don't get paid in due time. It makes little to no sense for someone, or a group, to only ever vote for one party, even though that party never does anything for them.

Hiding small things, sometimes many, in (big) bills, happens all the time, and most are aware of this. That's one of the easiest ways to get things through that would be controversial enough that the people wouldn't accept and their political representatives would vote against. The media tends to only cover the main portion of the bills, so the people don't get to find out, unless they go to lesser known media, or take the time to read the entirety of the bills themselves. Both sides are guilty of this.

As for how bills and laws would be different, this is the same type of point that Dulfite and Torillian were trying to make, which were poor arguments because both were suggesting things will or could be a certain way, when both were just taking educated guesses at best, and really didn't know because they couldn't. Nobody can know for certain what the past could have been, or what the future will be.



ConservagameR said:

You already pointed out that the Republicans are against the minority, which is a really bad thing and makes them poor leadership. If the Democrats are doing the same thing, ignoring the minority, doesn't that also mean it's a really bad thing and they're poor leadership?

Contradictory isn't really the right word to describe it. It would just be extremely illogical. Some people will work for free, in the hopes that they will eventually get paid. It doesn't take long before those people eventually leave and go elsewhere if they don't get paid in due time. It makes little to no sense for someone, or a group, to only ever vote for one party, even though that party never does anything for them.

Hiding small things, sometimes many, in (big) bills, happens all the time, and most are aware of this. That's one of the easiest ways to get things through that would be controversial enough that the people wouldn't accept and their political representatives would vote against. The media tends to only cover the main portion of the bills, so the people don't get to find out, unless they go to lesser known media, or take the time to read the entirety of the bills themselves. Both sides are guilty of this.

As for how bills and laws would be different, this is the same type of point that Dulfite and Torillian were trying to make, which were poor arguments because both were suggesting things will or could be a certain way, when both were just taking educated guesses at best, and really didn't know because they couldn't. Nobody can know for certain what the past could have been, or what the future will be.

What I pointed out about the republicans is that they make laws that put society 50-200 years backwards, and yes, it can be infered from that that republicans are against minorities. However, the minorities we are talking about are groups such as people of color who can't do anything about this specific trait of them. This is not the same thing as a minority trait that is defined by the mind, such as what gets called social justice warrior and the like - or as Torillian put it, the Twitter left. What is bad is the discrimination of people based on their color of skin or sexual orientation, and that is what the republicans do; this shouldn't need to be spelled out, but I guess I have no choice when you are acting deliberately obtuse.

The far-left repeatedly voting for the democrats without getting any of their ideas turned into reality isn't illogical. You argue that they would go elsewhere, but as I pointed out in my previous post, there's no viable alternative in the political system of the USA. The only "elsewhere" is the republicans who will actively work against anything that could be considered left ideas. Therefore a vote for the democrats who will do nothing good in the eyes of the far-left is still preferable to abstaining or voting republican, because power in the hands of the republicans will only ever result in bad things in the eyes of the far-left.

That both democrats and republicans insert small things into larger bills is just about the only sound point you've made, but it isn't a point that anyone in this thread will contest anyway, so it's moot.

Lastly, my point about bills and laws didn't deal with hypotheticals, but actual bills and laws that have been passed in states where republicans have control. There are no "what ifs" here, but only irrefutable reality.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Shipments