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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

CGI-Quality said:
TonsofPuppies said:

One of the largest components of fascism is the suppression / censorship of those whom oppose you - Russia, for example, is clearly exercising fascistic tactics upon its own people by arresting them for peacefully protesting, etc. Antifa operates in a similar fashion, using tactics such as doxxing and threats of violence against property and/or people to achieve their goals. Shutting down right-leaning or conservative speakers on college campuses for instance. I have no problem with them staging a counter protest against a speaker they disagree with, the line for me is crossed when they do not allow that speaker to speak and don't allow the people who want to hear them speak, do so.

Fascism is actually a far-right nationalist's way of thinking and "Antifa" (and I use quotations since that group is nothing close to organized) doesn't have widespread support of an authoritarian government. So calling them "fascists" is about as loose as it gets and I wouldn't put them in that category even if I can see why they would be lumped in.

That said, I heard about their shutting down of Ben Shapiro from a college campus. Of course I feel people should have a right to speak (so long as they don't advocate for violence), but I can also see why someone like him has folks trying to shut them down. There are just several layers that need to be considered.

In the case of Putin, he gets no such forgiveness. 

The right to speak doesn't come with the obligation from anyone to offer you a stage to speak. Refusing to hear someone you don't agree with from speaking using your medium is actually, in and of itself, an exercise of your own right to speak.



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EpicRandy said:
CGI-Quality said:

Fascism is actually a far-right nationalist's way of thinking and "Antifa" (and I use quotations since that group is nothing close to organized) doesn't have widespread support of an authoritarian government. So calling them "fascists" is about as loose as it gets and I wouldn't put them in that category even if I can see why they would be lumped in.

That said, I heard about their shutting down of Ben Shapiro from a college campus. Of course I feel people should have a right to speak (so long as they don't advocate for violence), but I can also see why someone like him has folks trying to shut them down. There are just several layers that need to be considered.

In the case of Putin, he gets no such forgiveness. 

The right to speak doesn't come with the obligation from anyone to offer you a stage to speak. Refusing to hear someone you don't agree with from speaking using your medium is actually, in and of itself, an exercise of your own right to speak.

Well Putin is certainly going into extremes exercising his right to speak then :P



KiigelHeart said:
EpicRandy said:

The right to speak doesn't come with the obligation from anyone to offer you a stage to speak. Refusing to hear someone you don't agree with from speaking using your medium is actually, in and of itself, an exercise of your own right to speak.

Well Putin is certainly going into extremes exercising his right to speak then :P

I get this is a joke but preventing someone to use your platform to speak != preventing someone to speak at all on under any stage with jail time threat for those who dare brave your muzzling.



CGI-Quality said:
EpicRandy said:

The right to speak doesn't come with the obligation from anyone to offer you a stage to speak. Refusing to hear someone you don't agree with from speaking using your medium is actually, in and of itself, an exercise of your own right to speak.

I'm aware of that. I was just giving further context.

yep and I agreed with you, wasn't contradicting you but offering my though/precision on a specific part of your previous post.



Since the topic has touched on hacking, perhaps it's time to hack the russian tv stations and play some facts, or even this doco and let them know that their soldiers are no better than other war criminals
https://www.terranoa.com/en/one-off/war-time-rapes-the-unspoken-weapon-2422



 

 

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Barozi said:
TonsofPuppies said:

One of the largest components of fascism is the suppression / censorship of those whom oppose you - Russia, for example, is clearly exercising fascistic tactics upon its own people by arresting them for peacefully protesting, etc. Antifa operates in a similar fashion, using tactics such as doxxing and threats of violence against property and/or people to achieve their goals. Shutting down right-leaning or conservative speakers on college campuses for instance. I have no problem with them staging a counter protest against a speaker they disagree with, the line for me is crossed when they do not allow that speaker to speak and don't allow the people who want to hear them speak, do so.

Suppression and censorship are definitely not exclusive to fascism. Communism (Leninism specifically) as well as religious and military regimes say hi.

To quote the first line of Wikipedia: "Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzÉ™m/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism"

Antifa is the opposite of far-right, they are the opposite of authoritarian and the opposite of nationalistic.

So yeah they might share a trait with Fascism (and the other types I mentioned above) but that doesn't make them fascist.

I didn't actually call them fascists, if you read my original post. I merely stated that they use methods which are fascistic in nature, which is ironic given their political stance. Regardless, it's not a good way to go about getting your message across and I can only look at those who support their methods as uneducated, ignorant or worse.



EpicRandy said:
CGI-Quality said:

Fascism is actually a far-right nationalist's way of thinking and "Antifa" (and I use quotations since that group is nothing close to organized) doesn't have widespread support of an authoritarian government. So calling them "fascists" is about as loose as it gets and I wouldn't put them in that category even if I can see why they would be lumped in.

That said, I heard about their shutting down of Ben Shapiro from a college campus. Of course I feel people should have a right to speak (so long as they don't advocate for violence), but I can also see why someone like him has folks trying to shut them down. There are just several layers that need to be considered.

In the case of Putin, he gets no such forgiveness. 

The right to speak doesn't come with the obligation from anyone to offer you a stage to speak. Refusing to hear someone you don't agree with from speaking using your medium is actually, in and of itself, an exercise of your own right to speak.

Of course it doesn't, but the rest of your take is laughable. There's a big difference between refusing to hear someone else speak (not listening) and refusing to allow that person to speak at all or refusing to allow other people (who willingly want to do so) listen to that person speak.

If we use the college campus example, which is a good one, then it is up to the college or university in question to determine if they'll allow that person to speak. If they've chosen to do so, antifa (or another other group of activists) have no right to shut down that speech - they do not own the stage, to use your wording.

Last edited by TonsofPuppies - on 05 April 2022

Also, major shoutout to @Ryuu96 for constantly updating this thread with the latest info. I pretty much just stop by here on the daily to keep up to date with what is going on in Ukraine. Thanks a lot!



TonsofPuppies said:
EpicRandy said:

The right to speak doesn't come with the obligation from anyone to offer you a stage to speak. Refusing to hear someone you don't agree with from speaking using your medium is actually, in and of itself, an exercise of your own right to speak.

Of course it doesn't, but the rest of your take is laughable. There's a big difference between refusing to hear someone else speak (not listening) and refusing to allow that person to speak at all or refusing to allow other people (who willingly want to do so) listen to that person speak.

If we use the college campus example, which is a good one, then it is up to the college or university in question to determine if they'll allow that person to speak. If they've chosen to do so, antifa (or another other group of activists) have no right to shut down that speech - they do not own the stage, to use your wording.

I don't want to derail this thread so I won't reply further than this post.

- There's a big difference between refusing to hear someone else speak (not listening) and refusing to allow that person to speak at all or refusing to allow other people (who willingly want to do so) listen to that person speak.
Nothing in my previous post says otherwise, not allowing someone on a stage does not equal not allowing them speak speak at all and also does not prevent anyone from listening to them they'll just have to do so through other medium and in the case of Shapiro believe me there are plenty... unfortunately. 

- If they've chosen to do so, antifa (or another other group of activists) have no right to shut down that speech.
That's were we disagree. They have all the right to voice their opposition or even protest the decision, that's is also called free speech or right to protest. If the college/ university reverse course due to the voiced opposition then there's nothing wrong with this.

- they do not own the stage, to use your wording.
They do not own the stage they own their voice which they used successfully to the extend that the campus reversed decision to allow Shapiro on stage. Free speech is what ultimately denied Shapiro the stage. 



EpicRandy said:
TonsofPuppies said:

Of course it doesn't, but the rest of your take is laughable. There's a big difference between refusing to hear someone else speak (not listening) and refusing to allow that person to speak at all or refusing to allow other people (who willingly want to do so) listen to that person speak.

If we use the college campus example, which is a good one, then it is up to the college or university in question to determine if they'll allow that person to speak. If they've chosen to do so, antifa (or another other group of activists) have no right to shut down that speech - they do not own the stage, to use your wording.

I don't want to derail this thread so I won't reply further than this post.

- There's a big difference between refusing to hear someone else speak (not listening) and refusing to allow that person to speak at all or refusing to allow other people (who willingly want to do so) listen to that person speak.
Nothing in my previous post says otherwise, not allowing someone on a stage does not equal not allowing them speak speak at all and also does not prevent anyone from listening to them they'll just have to do so through other medium and in the case of Shapiro believe me there are plenty... unfortunately. 

- If they've chosen to do so, antifa (or another other group of activists) have no right to shut down that speech.
That's were we disagree. They have all the right to voice their opposition or even protest the decision, that's is also called free speech or right to protest. If the college/ university reverse course due to the voiced opposition then there's nothing wrong with this.

- they do not own the stage, to use your wording.
They do not own the stage they own their voice which they used successfully to the extend that the campus reversed decision to allow Shapiro on stage. Free speech is what ultimately denied Shapiro the stage. 

We actually don't disagree here. If an activist group complains to the university and voices their opposition to a proposed speaker and THE UNIVERSITY chooses to cancel that speaker, then that is their decision. Not that I'd agree with that decision, of course, but in that instance, my criticism would be against the university for caving to (a small amount of) student pressure rather than the activists themselves.

Having said that, what you (and I) just described is very different than the university choosing to host the speaker anyway (despite complaints from far-left activists) and then those activists using intimidation, suppression and/or threats of violence to shut down that speaker after they have been given a platform. If you agree with the use of this tactic, I find that quite disappointing and sad, though it wouldn't surprise me these days.