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Forums - Microsoft - MS: 1st party Xbox games will be cross-gen for "next year, two years"

eva01beserk on 11 February 2020
Conina said:
eva01beserk said:

Now imaging how worst could they have been were there to be crossgen. Nobody is debating here that devs take better use out the machines later in the consoles life.

Now imagine how much better all these games could have been with a year more development time instead of rushing them out half-baked to satisfy the early adopters.

Now you asume all theese games where rushed? Anything to suport that? As far as I'm aware, infamous was great, no technical faults, full story, no glitches, looked top notch. The only complaint on the order was how short it was. Killzone I'm not sure, dont play shooters so dont even know the news about that game. And knack was knack. Even the second one was mediocre. What makes you think they where half baked?



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

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eva01beserk on 11 February 2020
sales2099 said:
eva01beserk said:

Now imaging how worst could they have been were there to be crossgen. Nobody is debating here that devs take better use out the machines later in the consoles life. But not even trying like MS is doing is definitely garante to get lesser results. 

“Not even trying”...so overall we all can admit that neither company makes the most use at launch. Making the entire argument against Xbox null and void. Thank you. 

Maybe they would have been better cross gen if Sony spent less time “pushing the consoles ability” (lol) and focus more on quality control. Perspectives work both ways  ;)

To you is null and void as you refuse to accept anything painting Xbox in the slightest bad light.

What we can admit is that at the beginning devs are still getting used to the hardware. They might not even know themselves what tricks they can pull off. Or how to get around certain inconveniences. Or if something works good some improvements and make it great. But at the moment they are using what they have at the fullest.

For thouse using pc as a metric. Consider the bios updates on cards. Still the same cards but what ever update they manufacture did tends to remove glitches, increases performance and what ever else. Games already made are already done can't do much but games in development will make better use of the new tools provided. So at both points in time devs where using the most of the hardware .

Consider when the xbox one freed up one of the CPU cores recerved for background operations. Games after that where better at no fault of the devs. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

goopy20 on 11 February 2020
LudicrousSpeed said:
goopy20 said:

The only facts we have is MS saying their 1st party games will be cross-gen for the next 1 or 2 years. And uncle Phil saying they have no wish to compete with Sony and Nintendo anymore because Amazon and Google are now apparently their main competitors. Everything else is all assumptions, like the first wave of ps5 exclusives being nothing special and won't take advantage of of the new tech. 

You should just ask yourself this. Does, MS saying their 1st party games will be cross gen for the first 1 or 2 years, sound like a good or a bad thing to you? I mean if you're not planning on buying a next gen console in the first 2 years anyway, it's not bad news at all. However, if you do plan on buying a series X early on, then tell me you wouldn't be disappointed if Halo Infinite turns out looking like a current gen remaster. Especially when something like Horizon Zero Dawn 2 comes out and does have true next gen ai, physics, geometry and whatnot. Not saying that will happen, but we do know for a fact that both companies have totally different strategies going in. So 1, 2 or 5 Years of cross gen games, it doesn't matter. What matters is if you think it's a good or a bad thing to begin with. And seeing how defensive some people are getting, I already know the answer.   

Hopefully you'll prove me wrong but the way MS's been talking reminds me so much of when MS was trying to shove Kinect down everyone's throat with the 360 and then taking it to another stupendous level when they announced the X1. Which was pitched as a box that connects the whole living room with Kinect and also plays games. I will just leave this here as a reminder of what happened the last time MS started blabbering about their services, instead of focusing on just launching a gaming console: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbWgUO-Rqcw

The goal posts continue to shift. Don’t tire yourself out now, there’s a lot of time before next gen. 

How strange that you’re complaining about this supposed lack of games from Microsoft when everything you’re upset about, be it GamePass, xCloud, or cross gen, all revolve around games. Traditional, “real” gaming. To compare it to Kinect or the TVTVTV Xbone reveal is just a massive reach, one you’re only making because your main arguments are weak and have been picked apart. 

To answer your question, if MS releases cross gen games for the first year of XSX (and that’s all they said it might be, the first year of next gen, so you don’t have to keep throwing out first two years or five years or whatever), I’ll be good either way because I own a Scorpio and will own a Series X. 

There’s a big difference between cross gen games for a max of one year into next gen versus five years.

It isn't exactly rocket science what MS is trying to do here. The 360 started out as a great console until MS noticed how the Wii was selling and did a complete u-turn with Kinect. They completely abandoned their core fan base and went after the casuals. With the Xone they wanted their console to be a kinect powered Apple TV clone that could also play games, and again pissed all over their fan base. Next gen it sounds like they want to be a subscription platform where their games can be played on as many devices as possible. 

MS always seems to be looking at a bigger picture, instead of just a gaming console. Now, from a business perspective I'm sure Game Pass and reaching a broader audience is great. But as a gamer, I don't care how much $$ they make by limiting all their 1st party titles so they can run on a bunch of devices with just a fraction of the Series X capabilities. I care about seeing the best games possible on their Series X and they've literally told us that's not their main goal. 

You can get defensive all you want but if you are perfectly happy with their strategy, you wouldn't care if their 1st party games would be cross platform for 1 or 2 years. Obviously, you don't approve and all you can do is convince yourself that 1 or 2 years isn't that long and Sony's first wave of ps5 exclusives won't make good use of the new tech anyway.      

Last edited by goopy20 - on 11 February 2020

Pemalite on 11 February 2020
HollyGamer said:
Pemalite said:

Jaguar has AVX 256. - It does so by double pumping the 128bit AVX units.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/6976/amds-jaguar-architecture-the-cpu-powering-xbox-one-playstation-4-kabini-temash/2

Xbox One, Playstation 4 can also do Ray Tracing, infact, some games already do via path traced global illumination.

PS3 also can do ray tracing. But that's not the point. But i guess if you want developing tetris with Ray Tracing that shouldn't be a problem. 

Well. You just look silly now don'cha.
Because even a game like Conker on the ORIGINAL Xbox back in 2005 used "Ray Tracing" to a certain degree.
http://fileadmin.cs.lth.se/cs/Education/EDAN35/lectures/Stefanov10-gi-in-games-notes.pdf

Ray Tracing isn't just this "singular" concept, there are dozens of different types of implementations and usage scenarios... Path Tracing, Cone Tracing, Ray Casting, Beam Tracing and more... All with different hardware demands, pro's and con's. - They are all Ray Tracing.
Ray Tracing didn't just happen overnight, it is hardware accelerated Ray Tracing using dedicated processing cores that is a new thing... Otherwise you have been exposed to Ray Tracing in some form or another for decades.

Voxel based Cone Tracing was implemented in some game engines, namely CryEngine.
https://docs.cryengine.com/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=21268888

Another example of Ray Tracing you might have been exposed to is when developers started using Path Tracing for subsurface scattering which actually occurred in the 7th gen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsurface_scattering

Ray Tracing is just the new tech-buzzword which replaces flops, which replaced bits before it... And people generally don't understand it's usage, it's meaning or it's importance in gaming. - They just know it's "better".




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

HollyGamer on 11 February 2020
Pemalite said:
HollyGamer said:

PS3 also can do ray tracing. But that's not the point. But i guess if you want developing tetris with Ray Tracing that shouldn't be a problem. 

Well. You just look silly now don'cha.
Because even a game like Conker on the ORIGINAL Xbox back in 2005 used "Ray Tracing" to a certain degree.
http://fileadmin.cs.lth.se/cs/Education/EDAN35/lectures/Stefanov10-gi-in-games-notes.pdf

Ray Tracing isn't just this "singular" concept, there are dozens of different types of implementations and usage scenarios... Path Tracing, Cone Tracing, Ray Casting, Beam Tracing and more... All with different hardware demands, pro's and con's. - They are all Ray Tracing.
Ray Tracing didn't just happen overnight, it is hardware accelerated Ray Tracing using dedicated processing cores that is a new thing... Otherwise you have been exposed to Ray Tracing in some form or another for decades.

Voxel based Cone Tracing was implemented in some game engines, namely CryEngine.
https://docs.cryengine.com/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=21268888

Another example of Ray Tracing you might have been exposed to is when developers started using Path Tracing for subsurface scattering which actually occurred in the 7th gen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsurface_scattering

Ray Tracing is just the new tech-buzzword which replaces flops, which replaced bits before it... And people generally don't understand it's usage, it's meaning or it's importance in gaming. - They just know it's "better".

What??? 

So you mean you can compare path tracing on old console with next gen console, thank you

SO I  guess tech company should stay on old tech and hardware 

And also please try to learn the difference between voxel cone tracing and ray tracing. They are different and very different in fact. And no Cryengine are not using raytracing. Old hardware can use Ray Tracing many render farm GPU are use to render polygon with ray tracing but it's slow in fact it's super slow that it cannot on real time. Instead it used only on CGI animated movie or hollywood effect.   

Last edited by HollyGamer - on 11 February 2020

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Pemalite on 11 February 2020
HollyGamer said:
Pemalite said:

Well. You just look silly now don'cha.
Because even a game like Conker on the ORIGINAL Xbox back in 2005 used "Ray Tracing" to a certain degree.
http://fileadmin.cs.lth.se/cs/Education/EDAN35/lectures/Stefanov10-gi-in-games-notes.pdf

Ray Tracing isn't just this "singular" concept, there are dozens of different types of implementations and usage scenarios... Path Tracing, Cone Tracing, Ray Casting, Beam Tracing and more... All with different hardware demands, pro's and con's. - They are all Ray Tracing.
Ray Tracing didn't just happen overnight, it is hardware accelerated Ray Tracing using dedicated processing cores that is a new thing... Otherwise you have been exposed to Ray Tracing in some form or another for decades.

Voxel based Cone Tracing was implemented in some game engines, namely CryEngine.
https://docs.cryengine.com/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=21268888

Another example of Ray Tracing you might have been exposed to is when developers started using Path Tracing for subsurface scattering which actually occurred in the 7th gen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsurface_scattering

Ray Tracing is just the new tech-buzzword which replaces flops, which replaced bits before it... And people generally don't understand it's usage, it's meaning or it's importance in gaming. - They just know it's "better".

What??? 

So you mean you can compare path tracing on old console with next gen console, thank you

SO I  guess tech company should stay on old tech and hardware 

I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but that isn't one of my statements.

HollyGamer said:

And also please try to learn the difference between voxel cone tracing and ray tracing. They are different and very different in fact. And no Cryengine are not using raytracing. Old hardware can use Ray Tracing many render farm GPU are use to render polygon with ray tracing but it's slow in fact it's super slow that it cannot on real time. Instead it used only on CGI animated movie or hollywood effect.   

They are obviously different. I did state as such prior. But it is all still a form of Ray Tracing.

And I quote myself: "Ray Tracing isn't just this "singular" concept, there are dozens of different types of implementations and usage scenarios..."

CryEngine does use Ray Tracing, I already provided a source direct from CryEngine development documentation... So don't spread mistruths.

Here is CryEngine (2010) using Global Illumination which is based on Partial Ray marching which is another form of Ray Tracing. Skip to 1:49.




Last edited by Pemalite - on 11 February 2020


www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

HollyGamer on 11 February 2020
Pemalite said:
HollyGamer said:

What??? 

So you mean you can compare path tracing on old console with next gen console, thank you

SO I  guess tech company should stay on old tech and hardware 

I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but that isn't one of my statements.

HollyGamer said:

And also please try to learn the difference between voxel cone tracing and ray tracing. They are different and very different in fact. And no Cryengine are not using raytracing. Old hardware can use Ray Tracing many render farm GPU are use to render polygon with ray tracing but it's slow in fact it's super slow that it cannot on real time. Instead it used only on CGI animated movie or hollywood effect.   

They are obviously different. I did state as such prior. But it is all still a form of Ray Tracing.

And I quote myself: "Ray Tracing isn't just this "singular" concept, there are dozens of different types of implementations and usage scenarios..."

CryEngine does use Ray Tracing, I already provided a source direct from CryEngine development documentation... So don't spread mistruths.

You are correct Cry Engine can use  ray tracing, but not the  Crysis back in 2007. But the new cryengine with RT they are using were develop on modern GPU Vega 56 and we already seen it. It's limited effect and using alot of GPU source. I don't have enough confident it can tackle modern games like Battlefield v with all RT effect on.   



LudicrousSpeed on 11 February 2020
goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

The goal posts continue to shift. Don’t tire yourself out now, there’s a lot of time before next gen. 

How strange that you’re complaining about this supposed lack of games from Microsoft when everything you’re upset about, be it GamePass, xCloud, or cross gen, all revolve around games. Traditional, “real” gaming. To compare it to Kinect or the TVTVTV Xbone reveal is just a massive reach, one you’re only making because your main arguments are weak and have been picked apart. 

To answer your question, if MS releases cross gen games for the first year of XSX (and that’s all they said it might be, the first year of next gen, so you don’t have to keep throwing out first two years or five years or whatever), I’ll be good either way because I own a Scorpio and will own a Series X. 

There’s a big difference between cross gen games for a max of one year into next gen versus five years.

It isn't exactly rocket science what MS is trying to do here. The 360 started out as a great console until MS noticed how the Wii was selling and did a complete u-turn with Kinect. They completely abandoned their core fan base and went after the casuals. With the Xone they wanted their console to be a kinect powered Apple TV clone that could also play games, and again pissed all over their fan base. Next gen it sounds like they want to be a subscription platform where their games can be played on as many devices as possible. 

MS always seems to be looking at a bigger picture, instead of just a gaming console. Now, from a business perspective I'm sure Game Pass and reaching a broader audience is great. But as a gamer, I don't care how much $$ they make by limiting all their 1st party titles so they can run on a bunch of devices with just a fraction of the Series X capabilities. I care about seeing the best games possible on their Series X and they've literally told us that's not their main goal. 

You can get defensive all you want but if you are perfectly happy with their strategy, you wouldn't care if their 1st party games would be cross platform for 1 or 2 years. Obviously, you don't approve and all you can do is convince yourself that 1 or 2 years isn't that long and Sony's first wave of ps5 exclusives won't make good use of the new tech anyway.      

How bizarre to see you bitching about them abandoning core gamers last gen as justification for why you... hate that they arent abandoning gamers this gen 😆

Also as a gamer idc about how much money they make either. I care about games which is why GamePass is so great.



goopy20 on 12 February 2020
LudicrousSpeed said:
goopy20 said:

It isn't exactly rocket science what MS is trying to do here. The 360 started out as a great console until MS noticed how the Wii was selling and did a complete u-turn with Kinect. They completely abandoned their core fan base and went after the casuals. With the Xone they wanted their console to be a kinect powered Apple TV clone that could also play games, and again pissed all over their fan base. Next gen it sounds like they want to be a subscription platform where their games can be played on as many devices as possible. 

MS always seems to be looking at a bigger picture, instead of just a gaming console. Now, from a business perspective I'm sure Game Pass and reaching a broader audience is great. But as a gamer, I don't care how much $$ they make by limiting all their 1st party titles so they can run on a bunch of devices with just a fraction of the Series X capabilities. I care about seeing the best games possible on their Series X and they've literally told us that's not their main goal. 

You can get defensive all you want but if you are perfectly happy with their strategy, you wouldn't care if their 1st party games would be cross platform for 1 or 2 years. Obviously, you don't approve and all you can do is convince yourself that 1 or 2 years isn't that long and Sony's first wave of ps5 exclusives won't make good use of the new tech anyway.      

How bizarre to see you bitching about them abandoning core gamers last gen as justification for why you... hate that they arent abandoning gamers this gen 😆

Also as a gamer idc about how much money they make either. I care about games which is why GamePass is so great.

I never said they're abandoning gamers. I'm saying their abandoning the core Xbox fan base, who can't wait to buy their Series X and play next gen games. They're main goal has simply shifted from competing with Sony in the console market and pushing next gen tech, towards reaching a broader audience with GP. Obviously, Kinect, the TV stuff and GP are totally different things. But they all share the same purpose, going after a broader audience. And if history has taught us anything, it's that it usually comes at the expense of giving the Xbox fan base what they want.  

I ain't no game developer but there's one thing everyone and their grandmothers knows: Games designed for a single, closed platform will always push the hardware better than games designed for a whole bunch of devices with different specs.  

Last edited by goopy20 - on 12 February 2020

LudicrousSpeed on 12 February 2020
goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

How bizarre to see you bitching about them abandoning core gamers last gen as justification for why you... hate that they arent abandoning gamers this gen 😆

Also as a gamer idc about how much money they make either. I care about games which is why GamePass is so great.

I never said they're abandoning gamers. I'm saying their abandoning the core Xbox fan base, who can't wait to buy their Series X and play next gen games. They're main goal has simply shifted from competing with Sony in the console market and pushing next gen tech, towards reaching a broader audience with GP. Obviously, Kinect and GP are two totally different things. But they both share the same purpose, going after a broader audience. And if history has taught us anything, it's that it usually comes at the expense of giving the Xbox fan base what they want.  

I ain't no game developer but there's one thing everyone and their grandmothers knows: Games designed for a single, closed platform will always push the hardware better than games designed for a whole bunch of devices with different specs.  

You're complaining that they aren't abandoning core gamers this gen. Right in the same thread where you're complaining about what they did last gen, which was abandon core gamers. Textbook damned if you do and damned if you don't.

And hey, another goal post shift. I think we all know software tailored to certain devices works better than something scalable and designed for many devices. See: iOS vs Android. But that is completely irrelevant to this thread and the argument you've lost thus far in it. No one is saying a game built from the ground up for XSX can't be more advanced than a game built for cross gen. We're simply saying it's not a big deal and won't make a big difference to launch window titles, and we have history and logic backing us up. Remember, as much as you try to stretch the window out to two to three to five years, they've only said that at max, one year of XSX first party content would be cross gen.

And how in the world would GamePass get in the way of giving Xbox owners want they want lol. Literally all it gives gamers is games. What nonsense.